Super Rugby 2022

[WorkingClassRugger]

Exactly what I said, they the countries top league, but they can't survive on them alone. I don't consider Super rugby as NZ's primary structure, NPC is that!! All I simply said is NZ and Aus can't really survive without Super rugby as neither of our markets are big enough to handle it. For christ sake if markets of 56 and 65 mill need a combined comp of any sort to survive how do you think NZ and Aus will get on. Even south Africa have Currie Cup , but still got teams playing up north, and look at their population! If anyone thinks either country can survive on a 5-6 team comp they are dreaming. How many teams in these stand alone comps (which can't survive without champion's cup) is there? In France 14 teams and England have 13 teams!!! And you suggesting I trying to equate different structures!! Wales ,Scotland,Ireland have combined to have a reasonable comp, and had SA teams join. These are the facts of rugby comps! Even Japan's new comp has 12 teams!!
As I said I pretty happy with NPC (14 teams) , but I can assure everyone that you will not get a long term comp with 5-6 teams!!
All I saying is what we want and what we get is controlled by what TV wants, and that is what will get people paying , not a few of us on a rugby forum!!!

Mate, the TV deal for the Champions Cup isn't the main driver of those leagues. It's very much an added bonus.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Mate, the TV deal for the Champions Cup isn't the main driver of those leagues. It's very much an added bonus.

If a-league can have its own domestic competition I think this proves Australia can have its own domestic competition. If nzru want to work with RA to offer a better super rugby product that meets our needs that negates relying on our own domestic pro competition as our main product, that would potentially negate the push for our own domestic pro product as the main game. But nzru and RA can’t seem to align to create this holy grail of quality super rugby product, so how much longer do we kick the can down the road given we have been kicking this can for some time.

Ps. This is just revisiting the frustrations and conversations already had so time to get the conversation back to super rugby 2022 competition.

 

[dru]

If a-league can have its own domestic competition I think this proves Australia can have its own domestic competition. If nzru want to work with RA to offer a better super rugby product that meets our needs that negates relying on our own domestic pro competition as our main product, that would potentially negate the push for our own domestic pro product as the main game. But nzru and RA can’t seem to align to create this holy grail of quality super rugby product, so how much longer do we kick the can down the road given we have been kicking this can for some time.

Ps. This is just revisiting the frustrations and conversations already had so time to get the conversation back to super rugby 2022 competition.

My thumbs up for the domestic thinking. Ditto for there is another thread for it.

 

[Dan54]

Mate, the TV deal for the Champions Cup isn't the main driver of those leagues. It's very much an added bonus.

Of course it not, Gallagher shield is still main comp in England, where did I say otherwise, all I say they got a 13 team comp in a population and still need an additional comp to help keep their clubs surviving, and keep the fans engaged. They don't do all the extras of being in the Heineken etc for fun. And one of reasons that is so hotly contested to qualify. Top 14 in France is same, very much the most important comp in France, but as jerome Kaino said Heineken Cup is probably only 2nd to WC in importance of comps he has won. And he has been part of top 14 winning team as well.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

How much do you think the current European deal is worth?

 

[Dan54]

I think it’s semantics at this point.

i don’t consider the NPC as the primary structure, It’s not in the same league of commercial viability as other tournaments like the premier league and top 14. NPC is a 3rd tier feeder competition, a very good one but not a lucrative commercial product on its own.

super rugby is New Zealand’s primary structure just like Australia, all 5 teams. Maybe if super rugby was scrapped the commercial value of NPC would increase.

NPC of course isn't considered a primary structure for you, as you reside in Aus. But it is the primary rep rugby comp in NZ as it's where the biggest amount of our professional players are involved!!
But I not arguing whether or not what is more important etc, but saying that I doubt whether Super Ao could survive long term with 5-6 teams, anymore than it could in Australia, so we are stuck with Super Pacific in the forseeable future.
We can all dream of Australia and NZ having seperate super comps, but neither country can do it. I saying both countries would need a 12 team comp to be viable, even before we assume that someone like Japan is sitting there waiting to join in a champions league.

Dan, broadcasters want quality product and content and on the latter also a decent amount of content that appeals to fans. Yeh we probably need at the right time a domestic product as well as super rugby cross border product. Debate will be on prominence of each though.
Taking an oz view the challenges are:
1. We don’t have a domestic semi pro product as key part of our path ways and development (having scrapped nrc whilst nz has npc and heartlands)
2. We don’t have a domestic pro product (Having scrapped super rugby au which to me was a mistake as could have short form super rugby au as well as super rugby pacific)
3. We have a flawed super rugby product that does not offer the flexibility to support a wider footprint of evenly matched teams. To me long term this has to be addressed and I think RA shown to be more flexible on this but also starting to see NZRU be at least be more open to consider different options as eventually I think long term there will be no choice with the threat of league and expansion of other pro comps and demand for players. As best defence against the latter is creating quality product with decent footprint in Asia pacific. If anything with league expansion we need to expand the footprint and create more pathway opportunities for players.

I agree it is not the be all and end all comp for crying out loud, you and I both know and Super needs tweaking, simply saying it's what we got and even you say but look at A league, a comp of 13 teams. I really can't see the product changing very much in the next 5-10 years, just because of numbers required to have seperate domestic comp like Super AU and Super AO, and money required etc isn't there.
Fellas we stuck with Super, so I know it's an internet forum so everyone likes a whinge, but let's be as positive as we can . Make the best of what we have, you know it can be enjoyed. Well I always do, but that could be the way we like to look at life, I like to find positives and be happy, some may like to find negatives

 

[Dan54]

How much do you think the current European deal is worth?

I can't remember now, but it's pretty big, from what I remember dwarfs our deals, as you would expect with the population.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I can't remember now, but it's pretty big, from what I remember dwarfs our deals, as you would expect with the population.

It's £67m over 4 years. Divied up between all of the participating clubs and Unions. After operating expenses. Not exactly a bonanza. The current Premiership deal is £152m over the same time frame. The extra cash helps but doesn't drive the bulk of the income these clubs receive.

Remember. It's not just the teams that are participating in the Champions Cup. Both the Premiership and Top 14 are administered by independent organisations. In England it's the PRL with its 13 member clubs who require a share and in France the LNR which oversees Pro Rugby that runs as deep as the 3rd Tier Federale 1. When you break it down just from the Top Tier leagues thats whatever is left after operation costs split among 38 clubs (not including the Sth Africans as I don't know if they are full members yet). I reckon most clubs might be lucky to see $500k a season from that deal.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

NPC of course isn't considered a primary structure for you, as you reside in Aus. But it is the primary rep rugby comp in NZ as it's where the biggest amount of our professional players are involved!!
But I not arguing whether or not what is more important etc, but saying that I doubt whether Super Ao could survive long term with 5-6 teams, anymore than it could in Australia, so we are stuck with Super Pacific in the forseeable future.
We can all dream of Australia and NZ having seperate super comps, but neither country can do it. I saying both countries would need a 12 team comp to be viable, even before we assume that someone like Japan is sitting there waiting to join in a champions league.

I agree it is not the be all and end all comp for crying out loud, you and I both know and Super needs tweaking, simply saying it's what we got and even you say but look at A league, a comp of 13 teams. I really can't see the product changing very much in the next 5-10 years, just because of numbers required to have seperate domestic comp like Super AU and Super AO, and money required etc isn't there.
Fellas we stuck with Super, so I know it's an internet forum so everyone likes a whinge, but let's be as positive as we can . Make the best of what we have, you know it can be enjoyed. Well I always do, but that could be the way we like to look at life, I like to find positives and be happy, some may like to find negatives

So how many games do we predict oz sides will win against kiwi sides in super rugby pacific? I am going to be optimistic and predict 15% which is marked improvement on 8% with last years TT.

 

[Dan54]

It's £67m over 4 years. Divied up between all of the participating clubs and Unions. After operating expenses. Not exactly a bonanza. The current Premiership deal is £152m over the same time frame. The extra cash helps but doesn't drive the bulk of the income these clubs receive.

Remember. It's not just the teams that are participating in the Champions Cup. Both the Premiership and Top 14 are administered by independent organisations. In England it's the PRL with its 13 member clubs who require a share and in France the LNR which oversees Pro Rugby that runs as deep as the 3rd Tier Federale 1. When you break it down just from the Top Tier leagues thats whatever is left after operation costs split among 38 clubs (not including the Sth Africans as I don't know if they are full members yet). I reckon most clubs might be lucky to see $500k a season from that deal.

Ok mate, I thought they had a deal with some tv station I had read about. I was under the impression there was a few different deals with different tv stations in diiferent countries.. But maybe that was incorrect as it spoke of being worth in the range of 2-4 mill a year on top of being in Gallagher etc comps. Was reading that in a write up that each game they play is worth approx 200-300 grand in Heineken CupWhich doesn't add up. I realise that money is administered etc by the bodies, and to be honest I have not sure how much Super rugby gets or is split anyway.

 

[Dan54]

So how many games do we predict oz sides will win against kiwi sides?

If it comp plays as per the draw (which is looking very unlikely) , I think Tahs may struggle to win against any but Drua (and I include other Aussie sides) , don't see why Reds & Brumbies won't be very competitive against any Kiwi team, on last years showing and not being sure of Force team this year, would expect them to pick up a win , and Rebels ,I can't get my head around as I thought they were poor compared to what I expected in past season. Bit I not in Aus so don't have feel for what's happening with teams, that just a guess. I see Reds ending up in top 3-4 teams of comp at least, with Brumbies also being around top 5. Top 6 I guessing in no real order could well be Crusaders, Blues, Chiefs,Reds, Brumbies and Clan? I wouldn't pick the order that they finish, but do suspect either the Crusaders and Blues would be favourites to win, with Reds and Chiefs being best chance in my opinion of knocking one of them out of a final spot. But only going on what I seen and know of teams at this point, as I said I don't really have a feel for whats going on in Oz rugby since I moved back.


I would also suggest that this post should be deleted about April/may if we looking like a Brumbies and Clan etc are going to top table.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

If it comp plays as per the draw (which is looking very unlikely) , I think Tahs may struggle to win against any but Drua (and I include other Aussie sides) , don't see why Reds & Brumbies won't be very competitive against any Kiwi team, on last years showing and not being sure of Force team this year, would expect them to pick up a win , and Rebels ,I can't get my head around as I thought they were poor compared to what I expected in past season. Bit I not in Aus so don't have feel for what's happening with teams, that just a guess. I see Reds ending up in top 3-4 teams of comp at least, with Brumbies also being around top 5. Top 6 I guessing in no real order could well be Crusaders, Blues, Chiefs,Reds, Brumbies and Clan? I wouldn't pick the order that they finish, but do suspect either the Crusaders and Blues would be favourites to win, with Reds and Chiefs being best chance in my opinion of knocking one of them out of a final spot. But only going on what I seen and know of teams at this point, as I said I don't really have a feel for whats going on in Oz rugby since I moved back.


I would also suggest that this post should be deleted about April/may if we looking like a Brumbies and Clan etc are going to top table.

I am predicting we see double the wins from last years TT. From memory we won 2 out of 25 clashes. So 4 wins should be achievable. But who knows reds and brumbies could surprise and maybe we could get as high as 10 wins. If we got 10 wins that would be 40% and huge success. But really no reason why should see that sort of improvement so realistically aiming for 4 to 6 wins probably realistic.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

If it comp plays as per the draw (which is looking very unlikely) , I think Tahs may struggle to win against any but Drua (and I include other Aussie sides) , don't see why Reds & Brumbies won't be very competitive against any Kiwi team, on last years showing and not being sure of Force team this year, would expect them to pick up a win , and Rebels ,I can't get my head around as I thought they were poor compared to what I expected in past season. Bit I not in Aus so don't have feel for what's happening with teams, that just a guess. I see Reds ending up in top 3-4 teams of comp at least, with Brumbies also being around top 5. Top 6 I guessing in no real order could well be Crusaders, Blues, Chiefs,Reds, Brumbies and Clan? I wouldn't pick the order that they finish, but do suspect either the Crusaders and Blues would be favourites to win, with Reds and Chiefs being best chance in my opinion of knocking one of them out of a final spot. But only going on what I seen and know of teams at this point, as I said I don't really have a feel for whats going on in Oz rugby since I moved back.


I would also suggest that this post should be deleted about April/may if we looking like a Brumbies and Clan etc are going to top table.

For the tahs, rebels and force I reckon each could potentially snag one win against kiwi sides but that is about it. To me reds and brumbies would be again 2 best performing oz sides.

 

[Dan54]

For the tahs, rebels and force I reckon each could potentially snag one win against kiwi sides but that is about it. To me reds and brumbies would be again 2 best performing oz sides.

So we probably agree, and I don't really see the Canes picking up much more tha a couple of wins against other kiwi sides (in saying that Clan could be a little brittle), and really can't see them knocking over Brumbies and Reds (maybe one), and could also see them being the type of team that will stuff up against Rebels, Force etc. As a Canes man I hope I wrong, but without a decent 10 I fear for our prospects. They could be kind of team though that will upset the Crusaders and then lose to Rebels etc next week!!

 

[Rugbynutter39]

So we probably agree, and I don't really see the Canes picking up much more tha a couple of wins against other kiwi sides (in saying that Clan could be a little brittle), and really can't see them knocking over Brumbies and Reds (maybe one), and could also see them being the type of team that will stuff up against Rebels, Force etc. As a Canes man I hope I wrong, but without a decent 10 I fear for our prospects. They could be kind of team though that will upset the Crusaders and then lose to Rebels etc next week!!

What continues to concern me is now with no nrc non wallaby players of super rugby squads don’t get the extra footy / development time vs nz non all black players who have npc. To me this is one area where I believe could contribute to a widening gap between nz and oz super rugby sides. I personally didn’t get dropping nrc as thought it was set up to cover costs and be at least funding neutral. I really hope we see nrc back but does not look like going to happen in 2022. Again I am assuming about finding new funding source (eg pe investment)

 

[Members Section]

Clubs prepare for Super Rugby fixture overhaul

International travel might take a backseat early in the season.

www.canberratimes.com.au

Cant read it but something about a new fixture dropping this week with super round moved to anzac day weekend

 

[Dan54]

what continues to concern me is now with no nrc non wallaby players of super rugby squads don’t get the extra footy / development time vs nz non all black players who have npc. To me this is one area where I believe could contribute to a widening gap between nz and oz super rugby sides. I personally didn’t get dropping nrc as thought it was set up to cover costs and be at least funding neutral. I really hope we see nrc back but does not look like going to happen in 2022. Again I am assuming about finding new funding source (eg pe investment)

this x 100. I couldn't agree more.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

NZ Govt making an announcement at 2pm wrt Omicron-related changes to MIQ & border re-opening. I don't think it's going to be good news for SRP (Super Rugby Pacific).

 

[Members Section]

NZ Govt making an announcement at 2pm wrt Omicron-related changes to MIQ & border re-opening. I don't think it's going to be good news for SRP (Super Rugby Pacific).

Looks like local derby's till at least march

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

OK so the news isn't (yet) that bad wrt SRP (Super Rugby Pacific): MIQ-free travel from Aus for fully-vaxxed NZ citizens & residents has been pushed back from mid-Jan to late-Feb. Whether that has a knock-on effect for the general lifting of MIQ from April hasn't been spelled out & it may just be that whereas before the Aus border was being opened before any of the others now every border will be treated the same. Or so I hope.