The Awful Truth About The ARU's Financial Position

[Train Without a Station]

Yeah my bad the figures are about 2,000 above because of this.

But yeah, clearly missed the whole point of the discussion. The figures were merely to illustrate the fact that there were regular crowds, generally better than Sydney NRL teams and that having an AFL team had not greatly diminished that.

Anyway perhaps you should go grab that dip for that fucking chip on your shoulder.

Clearly you don't know too much about AFL. 50,000 certainly didn't turn up for the Suns last game in Melbourne against North Melbourne at Etihad for example. In fact as the Suns play almost all their Melbourne games at Etihad, they don't play in front of larger AFL crowds as Etihad has the lower attended games of each round in Melbourne.

 

[TOCC]

That's just theoretical bullshit.
In the real world,last year people were hoping crowds would be big enough to ensure the event wouldn't be moved somewhere else.
They probably only needed to promise to run buses to the event,to win the bid.
If visitor spends $3k on his holiday,and $200 of that,is his ticket.
How much does the ARU make out of him?

I guess it must be theoretical bullshit that the QLD Govt is a major sponsor then... Id actually call it simple economics..

Exactly what part is utter bullshit? The fact that governments pay to host sporting events?

 

[Omar Comin']

No. I've never been to the 7's because I have no interest in 7's, and no interest in spending all day drinking at an event I have no interest in. I'd rather go to the cricket.



How many exclusive 7's fans does rugby 7's have that do not follow 15's? I'd wager almost none. Therefore you are only reducing your market, not at all increasing it.

Okay so you've never been to an event and you don't like it. You have to realise you're negatively biased and not overly well informed about sevens. The fact you don't think sevens is an opportunity to broaden the fan base is why I asked if you'd attended an event, because you wouldn't think that if you had.

I'd wager that at the London 7's a few weeks ago (which I attended), up to 40-50% of the 75,000 that were there on the Saturday were not regular rugby fans. Quite possibly more. It was a very different crowd to what you see at a test match where probably 90% would be regular rugby fans. There was a much higher % of young adults and women there than you get at a regular rugby club or test match.

Sevens might not have many week in week out fans that don't watch 15's, but what it's developing in certain places around the world is a reputation for a great day out with some exciting on field action and a festival atmosphere in the stands. It just hasn't happened in Australia yet. But if it can happen in London within a few years (as I said, it was ghost town at the London 7's only a handful of years ago), it can happen in Australia with the right location and promotion. This year's theme in London for example was Monsters, and so half the crowd were dressed up as anything from dinosaurs to zombies . Between matches there was music everyone danced to and stuff like Kiss Cam, which was funny because they'd occasionally stop on a couple of mates dressed up as aliens or something. On top of that the rugby was fast paced and you get lots of different matches, some you watch with more interest than others. In a multicultural city like London you also get pockets of support for pretty much every team so that adds to the atmosphere as well.

I agree the NRC is crucial, but it doesn't mean the ARU shouldn't do anything else! The NRC is not going to immediately attract huge crowds or large numbers of television viewers, and in some ways it's more difficult because it's 3rd tier and it will need to develop support for new teams. A summer sevens series would also start small and build over time, but it would be the top tier under internationals and it would involve teams people already know and support. I'd play it at small grounds (eg, the likes of North Sydney Oval for 3 hours or so on a Friday evening), keep prices low and position it as a fun evening out with family or friends. It would be run over about 3 or 4 weeks tops and only a couple of nights in each place per year. Target uni students and the after work crowd on a Thursday or Friday evening, families and younger people in general on the weekend.

 

[Train Without a Station]

You will get no non regular rugby fans to watch 7s this isn't England. These non rugby fans are already watching the AFL, NRL or A League in Australia. This isn't England with only 2 major winter sporting codes. USA can get tens of thousands to high school football games. Are we going to start mass marketing the GPS competition?

Why would I want to watch 7s? If I thought 15s was too slow and wanted a faster, more skilful game I'd watch AFL. If AFL was too open and didn't satisfy my need too contact and tests of strength I'd watch 15s.

What England gets is almost irrelevant in Australia due to the variance in competition.

You've clearly swallowed the kool aid that said rugby 7s was the magic pill that would appeal to the masses without realising that one off events may work but they do not sustain a product year round and people go to these events as a one off. They're aren't people all around Australia waiting for the Next 7s event to go to. Most don't care enough to go to the current one.

Back to your point about them getting 75,000 at twickers in a country where they have more club teams which get regular crowds of this size for games (which we don't here). How would that be attended if they put one on again for the next 7 weeks? I'd say you'd get closer to 7,500 than 75,000.

 

[Omar Comin']

I don't think you understand how big soccer is in England. There are 4 professional leagues with almost 100 clubs! Not to mention all the other stuff on in London that competes for the entertainment dollar.

A lot of people at the 7's events aren't even regular sports fans let alone rugby fans. They are people going to a giant all day dress up party with some fun international sport in the middle of it. Once a year! How many people that go to the Australian Open tennis in Melbourne ever year do you think watch tennis all year round? I'd guess less than 10%.

There is no reason the Australian IRB series leg couldn't have similar success as those in London, Wellington, Hong Kong and Dubai. There's just no chance of it reaching those levels in Adelaide or the Gold Coast. It needs to be in a marquee city.

And sure, obviously a domestic series isn't going to get those sort of crowds, especially to begin with. But it does allow you to take the sport to multiple locations and feature some more recognised players. Plus develop the players that will compete for national selection and Olympic medals every 4 years. It would only come to whatever city you live in once per year at most so I don't think it would be impossible to develop support.

The Aviva Premiership runs a 7's competition as a pre season in August.
The 12 teams + the 4 Welsh regions are split into 4 groups of 4 playing round robin at 4 different venues over one weekend, the winners move forward to the finals the next weekend and the overall winner qualifies for the World Club 7's played at Twickenham (the inaugural event was won last year by the Brumbies). That World Club 7's didn't attract big crowds in its first year, but maybe in 5 years it will. Thankfully there are some people in the world with a bit of ambition and optimism for the game.

 

[Omar Comin']

Why would I want to watch 7s? If I thought 15s was too slow and wanted a faster, more skilful game I'd watch AFL. If AFL was too open and didn't satisfy my need too contact and tests of strength I'd watch 15s.

Because it's fun. Because it's rugby. Because the games are short and sharp, so if you get a bad one or one that's not very competitive, you can just have a chat with the people around you, or get some drinks or food and come back for the next one without feeling like you've missed anything.

Sevens is a festival based around rugby, it's not at all like going to a long match between two teams in 15's or AFL.

And you've never even been so what would you know?

 

[Train Without a Station]

You are saying nothing that justifies it being anything more than a one off event that the sport is just a side note to. Which it currently is.

 

[Omar Comin']

You are saying nothing that justifies it being anything more than a one off event that the sport is just a side note to. Which it currently is.

I never said there should be year round tournaments in Australia.

What I'm saying is there is scope to significantly increase the size and support of the Australian leg of the IRB series and that we could develop a successful domestic series played over 3 or 4 weeks in summer.

If both of those things were to happen 7's would make a positive contribution to the ARU's finances. It's never going to be the main bread winner.

Keep in mind the NRL made millions from the Auckland Nines event this year. They are now talking of a nines circuit over summer in Australia and NZ featuring younger and recently retired NRL players: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11203240

What is rugby doing?

 

[Braveheart81]

What is rugby doing?

The NRC.

Do you think the ARU has dozens of employees sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for new events to organise?

I think you grossly underestimate the staff required as well as the funding to get a new major event off the ground.


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[I like to watch]

I guess it must be theoretical bullshit that the QLD Govt is a major sponsor then. Id actually call it simple economics..

Exactly what part is utter bullshit? The fact that governments pay to host sporting events?

Nothing is utter bullshit.
In theory, your concept is right,but not in practical terms IMO.

BIL or Bled Test matches are highly sought after by cities to host,and they are prepared to pay substantial amounts to host these events.
But the 7's are not in the same ball park.
Any suggestions that the Qld Government pays a substantial amount to host this tournament is bullshit.
It was hardly a raging success in SA,and after 3 years on the GC,still draws less than an average crowd at the local NRL or AFL.
There are 4 other major sponsors that are featured before the Qld Government.
Which pretty much sums up their level of support......
IMHO

 

[Omar Comin']

The NRC.

Do you think the ARU has dozens of employees sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for new events to organise?

I think you grossly underestimate the staff required as well as the funding to get a new major event off the ground.

I'm not estimating anything. I'm discussing theoretical ideas on an internet forum. You should try thinking 'how could this work' before 'this won't work' sometimes, it's more enjoyable. Domestic sevens might be better organised by a private group than directly by the ARU. There are alternatives to the ARU having to have absolute control over everything.

I wonder whatever happened to this after 2011:

A GROUP of 15 businessmen headed by former Myer chairman Bill Wavish and television presenter David Koch is negotiating with the Australian Rugby Union to buy into the Australian seven-a-side program in the lead-up to the 2016 Rio de Janeiro Olympics.

etc etc etc ...

The consortium also plans to set up sevens tournaments in Australia with a goal of spreading into Asia which is seen as the real growth area of the game.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/spo...corporate-circle/story-e6frg7o6-1226023530106

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree with the concept that our leg of the IRB 7s could be done better. Wherever it is, it probably needs to be part of a larger sporting or cultural week if it is to obtain any sort of profile. I've never favoured the Gold Coast as the location - it was probably going just as well in Adelaide. Given that 7s is an Olympic sport and also has male and female competitions, it should at the very least be a long term ARU objective to raise its profile.

My take on the position of 7s is that traditional rugby people barely tolerate it as being rugby, while non-rugby people take a little more interest. Aren't these the people we're trying to attract?

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm intrigued to know about this non-rugby interest. I'm honestly doubtful of it.

 

[Omar Comin']

I'm intrigued to know about this non-rugby interest. I'm honestly doubtful of it.

I'm pretty sure I didn't dream that I went to packed stadiums for the rugby sevens in London and Vegas with friends that knew nothing about the sport and really enjoyed themselves. My perception was that a significant % of the crowd both times (perhaps more so in London actually), were not regular rugby people. The crowd was younger and more diverse.

These sort of events feed off momentum. Once people start taking their friends and you get big crowds and people know it will be a big event, you get more interest. The Hong Kong and Wellington sevens have become bucket list events and others are catching up. Plus the IRB have put all the events out to tender for the 2015/16 season so I suspect the standard will continue to increase as poorly run and supported events will lose their place (the IRB has reportedly had interest from 25 countries). There is talk of an event in Munich during Oktoberfest for example. That would be massive.

I think holding it at the SFS in Sydney would be best. It ticks every box. Big multicultural population, hub city, attractive for tourists, perfect sized stadium and rugby has a decent profile. With a good theme and social media campaign I think it would attract big crowds in its first year.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I agree non-rugby people go to one off events. That's great. We have one-off event. It could be a little more successful, but one event isn't the magic bullet. People go to all sorts of sporting events they are not that interested in because it's an "event" an "experience" and also the cynic in me, something to talk about to make them sound interesting.

For anything 7s related to be a significant benefit and have any sort of lengthened presence, it will need people who actually have an interest in the sport, which takes me back to my original question.

 

[Omar Comin']

Well if it ever became truly successful a one off event could provide a substantial benefit. The Hong Kong 7's does for the HKRU.

With a domestic series you could have 'one off events' in a handful of locations. They wouldn't be as big but in time they could become a decent revenue stream.

It would be an easier sell if it contained some well known players. There must be plenty of 15's stars that would love to have a crack in the Olympics. And it'd be good if they had a way of gaining 7's experience without having to give up super rugby for a season to try it out.

I would see a guy like Folau or Michael Hooper playing some domestic sevens matches in the off-season as no different to Quade Cooper boxing.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Oh and that's the point I forgot to get to.

The Auckland 9's was allegedly a massive hit. It also has massive novelty appeal initially however I predict it to eventually fizzle away? Why? Because just like the previously popular Rugby League Pre-Season 7's which fizzled away, once clubs stop using their best players in nothing fixtures when the novelty wears off, nobody will care.

Without a full international season and a much larger pool of players the NRL is better equipped with the scope for more games than Rugby, but it will happen. Nobody wants to risk injury in nothing fixtures.

Michael Hooper will not be playing off-season 7's. We already have our best players reaching the CBA limit on appearances. There is no room for these players to play more games.

I'd wager that the following would be not at all available barring an injury disrupted season:

Israel Folau
Michael Hooper
Kurtley Beale
Will Genia
Quade Cooper
Matt To'omua
Stephen Moore
Wycliff Palu
Scott Fardy
Nick Cummins
Adam Ashley Cooper

You may get lucky and have the odd player like Scott Higginbotham who is not a cemented Wallaby be available if they want to take time out of their off-season or pre-season and potentially affect their preparations for the next season.

Do you know there's already a rule in place that if players have played something like more than 16 (not sure on exact figure) Super Rugby games, they are not obligated to play in the NRC?

The NRC offers the benefit of teams with some connection already to build on support with Super Rugby players and also a place for Wallaby contenders to get game time in International season the same way the ITM Cup does in NZ.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm not estimating anything. I'm discussing theoretical ideas on an internet forum. You should try thinking 'how could this work' before 'this won't work' sometimes, it's more enjoyable. Domestic sevens might be better organised by a private group than directly by the ARU. There are alternatives to the ARU having to have absolute control over everything.

Now you're changing your point of discussion. A few posts ago you were suggesting that the ARU is doing nothing to improve the situation of the game in Australia and now you're saying it's all just hypothetical ideas.

At some point there needs to be some reality brought into the discussion otherwise it is pointless.

 

[Omar Comin']

Now you're changing your point of discussion. A few posts ago you were suggesting that the ARU is doing nothing to improve the situation of the game in Australia and now you're saying it's all just hypothetical ideas.

I was actually talking specifically about domestic 7's and making a comparison with the NRL 9's. So I wasn't shifting the conversation.

And unless people happen to have substantial inside information all discussion between fans of this nature is largely hypothetical.

 

[Omar Comin']

Nobody wants to risk injury in nothing fixtures.

They wouldn't be nothing fixtures, they'd be fixtures in a genuine competition, and for the players themselves it would be all about increasing their chances of making the Olympics. Some of the Wallabies and Super Rugby regulars will have Olympics ambitions and will need to play some Sevens in order to have a better chance of transitioning to it in 2016 (and in future olympic years).

You certainly wouldn't have all the big names involved but you might have some. You'd also have a few fringe super rugby players that people know and exciting young players. Plus in time local sevens specialists would develop. Top touch players may start playing as has been the case with the women.

Not sure if sevens matches would be counted in the CBA limit? They're a lot less physical and much shorter. It'd be a great way to build or maintain fitness in the pre-season.