p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
You don't think we can criticise the ARU for the game getting into a situation where ARU jobs are cut, club funding is reduce and players salaries are reduced?
The Awful Truth About The ARU's Financial Position
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Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Note: "salaries" plural and from the horse's mouth.
What are the facts we dont know or understand relating to this observation from the CEO?
I don't know much about why and how this has all happened. However, I have followed the game all my life and I never seen so many like me say "they can't stand the game now, or the player's attitudes, or that the game is now boring." Something very wrong if long time supporters are saying such things.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
The point I made stands. You criticised JON's payout, without any knowledge of the facts. Facts do matter.
Constructive criticism is one thing, mindless carping is another.
The ARU has made mistakes, no doubt, with the benefit of hindsight. However, the game of rugby has been its own worst enemy. It has been a hard sell ever since the 2007 World Cup, which was a dire spectacle, not just for Aussies, but for everybody.
PLus, rugby is up against two very popular locally run sports, who can change the rules of the games at will, whose competitions are all local, in Australian time zones, and which have become very wealthy on the back of lucrative tv deals.
If you have any bright ideas as to how the ARU can change the local marketplace to give our game a bit more prominence, I am sure they would be very interested. And if you have any bright ideas about how to ensure that the Wobblies win a lot more games, ditto.
Blaming the ARU for everything that goes wrong - or that could be better, but isn't - is just peurile.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
There is some truth in what you say.
I would add however, that since the advent of professionalism rugby in Australia has lived well beyond its means, particularly in terms of salaries - both to players and administrators. I think the point that many of us make is that people were put into highly paid positions with the expectation that they would run the game if not at a profit every year, then at least break even with the occasional small loss. I think with the wages that have been paid, we've been entitled to a better return than we have.
p.Tah
John Thornett (49)
You want reasoned discussion based on facts but you expect that on a fan forum?! Come on Wamberal
In all seriousness you make a good point, but sometimes we need a rant. I love rugby but I'm so disillusioned at the moment.
On reflection, the point you make about facts is important. We, the fans, are the most important stakeholder in the game, yet we don't know the facts. When you think about that it is a major issue. The key theme in this thread is the lack of transparency at the ARU. We should know what is happening. Not so we can be armchair judges and demand the ARU be accountable, but rather how we can help the game. Bare with me for a moment.
Rugby is filled with very successful business people (fans). Could the fans help provide the breakthrough idea or strategy if we knew all the facts? If we knew what the research is saying, if we knew what the constraints were, if we knew what the true issues and threats are and what the current strategy is, could we help?
All of us have many ideas on how to help rugby, but the ideas are probably unworkable because we don't know the full picture. Perhaps the ARU can let us in.
There are countless examples of successes in astronomy, mathematics and medicine where the wider community is engaged in finding a solution. Could it work for rugby? It couldn't hurt, the ideas don't have to be implemented, but surely it's worth investigating what can be found. We don't know what we don't know.
If the ARU is reluctant to take the big plunge and open the doors to the full community. Set up a think tank (or tanks) and invite those who are inside the game and those who love the game but are on the sidelines. I have over 70 days of annual leave, I would love nothing more than an opportunity to take a week or two off work and try and help from a strategic perspective. I'd spend my evenings working on it as well. That's what I do for a job and what I love doing. We're all on G&GR because we are passionate, we care and we want to discuss solutions for the game. Invite us in. In companies sometimes it's the mail boy who provides the ground breaking insight. He just needs to be asked.
The Pulveriser seems to have a good and realistic grip on the budget numbers, based on his performance on the Rugby HQ tonight.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
Here's some facts the ARU should have planned into their forecast;
- There are 2 other winter sports that are more popular than rugby and they're only going to get stronger in media coverage, TV rights revenue, marketing and geographic expansion.
- Free to Air TV is clogged with content from these other 2 sports and it will be difficult if not impossible to gain a reasonable amount of any airtime, let alone in prime time.
- Financial windfalls from Lions Tours only happen every 12 years
- Every 4th year our domestic and EOYT test revenues suffer dramatically because of the RWC that year.
- The performance of the Wallabies is in steady decline and will affect our sponsorship/merchandising/ticketing/ revenues.
- We can no longer rely upon nor continue to luck out from hedging positive A$ fluctuations.
- We are facing massive challenges in keeping players from leaving for lucrative French and Japanese offers.
- We have lost touch and the respect of our grass roots system including club rugby stakeholders.
- The IRB determined rules of rugby are hampering our efforts to compete with other codes in our domestic market from an entertainment perspective.
The starting premise for a solution must be - before you try and go anywhere, get violent agreement on where you're starting from.
Me thinks the ARU has for too long, been in denial or la la land about too many obvious facts.
- There are 2 other winter sports that are more popular than rugby and they're only going to get stronger in media coverage, TV rights revenue, marketing and geographic expansion.
- Free to Air TV is clogged with content from these other 2 sports and it will be difficult if not impossible to gain a reasonable amount of any airtime, let alone in prime time.
- Financial windfalls from Lions Tours only happen every 12 years
- Every 4th year our domestic and EOYT test revenues suffer dramatically because of the RWC that year.
- The performance of the Wallabies is in steady decline and will affect our sponsorship/merchandising/ticketing/ revenues.
- We can no longer rely upon nor continue to luck out from hedging positive A$ fluctuations.
- We are facing massive challenges in keeping players from leaving for lucrative French and Japanese offers.
- We have lost touch and the respect of our grass roots system including club rugby stakeholders.
- The IRB determined rules of rugby are hampering our efforts to compete with other codes in our domestic market from an entertainment perspective.
The starting premise for a solution must be - before you try and go anywhere, get violent agreement on where you're starting from.
Me thinks the ARU has for too long, been in denial or la la land about too many obvious facts.
wamberal
Phil Kearns (64)
Do you really, really, imagine that the people who run the game do not understand the facts? I know one of them, he is a former Wallaby, came up the hard way, ended up in a very senior executive job because of his ability, he certainly was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. He has given countless thousands of hours, free of charge, working for the game in Australia. He knows the facts better than you do. He is not an idiot.
Okay, Einstein. You know the facts, you know better than the silly buggers who are running the game (including those who are where they are because of their background in the game, and do not get paid for their efforts).
Tell us, in simple terms, what the fark they should have, or should be, doing? Because I have been watching, playing, supporting, and agonising over the game for 60 years (!!!) and I do not know. (Actually, I do know what could be done to improve our situation, but most of this is in the hands of the IRB, the rest is in the hands of another David Clarke - do you remember? The chap who dug into his pocket and saved the Waratahs from financial oblivion?)
Share your wisdom, please.
It is what it is
John Solomon (38)
You sound a little fired up Wamberal.
I'll throw you a teaser solution so feel free to tear this one apart;
Fact - Since 2003 it's been bleeding obvious to the world that the Wallaby Scrum cannot sustainably compete in meaningful games.
It has become such an issue that we are now better known internationally for our scrummaging ineptitude than for any other facet of our game.
Remember when we were known for our running game and tactical smarts?
In far too many games we can't win our own scrum ball, let alone put any pressure on the oppositions. We repeatedly give away penalties and Wallaby fans sometimes actually fear for the safety of our players.
Please note I am not denying effort by the players, I'm talking results.
SO, in 10 long years what has the ARU done to seriously address this obvious problem and ensure that we minimise (you can't eliminate) the chances of it costing us again and again in the future?
I'd say very little, but you probably have a different perspective.
The ARU runs a business.
Irrespective of the business sector one operates in, any leadership group of a business that neglects such an obvious flaw in its business has to be either guilty of ignoring the facts and/or are incapable of addressing it.
Solution - Make the strong yet obvious decision to call our scrummaging skills unacceptable. Find the best scrum technician ( it's most probably not an Australian) and related strength and conditioning experts that money and opportunity can attract, throw a plan and resources at it and bloody well fix it. It will not be an easy or quick fix but let's not have another 10 years of Groundhog Days with our scrum.
How many changes of CEO, Chairmen, Selectors, Head Coaches etc will it take for the ARU to identify the problem and fix it?
Oh yeah, Prawns are expensive at the moment too - it's about as relevant to the argument as your David Clarke comment.
You think the ARU finances are bad.
How about this extract from 2013 Audited Financial Report of the NSW Junior Rugby Union from their Commercial Manager about the state of the Australian Junior Rugby Union finances?
During the 2012 financial year NSWJRU lent Australian Junior Rugby Union Inc (AJRU) $25,000 to promote a national tournament for Under 15’s and Under 17’s. This loan was reduced by $3,680 being the fees paid by NSWJRU to enter the 2012 AJRU tournament.
Despite numerous requests via email and telephone neither the President of AJRU, Treasurer of AJRU or the former President of NSWJRU has been able to provide any correspondence in relation to the terms and conditions of this loan.
As at 31 October 2012 AJRU had Net Liabilities of $37,232. Its assets were Cash at Bank of $2,568 and Debtors of $2,840. In the opinion of the 2013 NSWJRU Committee there is little likely hood that NSWJRU will be able to recover this loan. Therefore as at 31 October 2013 the NSWJRU Committee made a provision for the full amount of the loan.
Source: Page 11 of the NSW JRU annual Report http://www.nswjuniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/2013_NSWJRU_Annual_Report.pdf
I wonder how much the QJRU, ACTJRU and other Junior Unions have "loaned" the AJRU?
How about this extract from 2013 Audited Financial Report of the NSW Junior Rugby Union from their Commercial Manager about the state of the Australian Junior Rugby Union finances?
During the 2012 financial year NSWJRU lent Australian Junior Rugby Union Inc (AJRU) $25,000 to promote a national tournament for Under 15’s and Under 17’s. This loan was reduced by $3,680 being the fees paid by NSWJRU to enter the 2012 AJRU tournament.
Despite numerous requests via email and telephone neither the President of AJRU, Treasurer of AJRU or the former President of NSWJRU has been able to provide any correspondence in relation to the terms and conditions of this loan.
As at 31 October 2012 AJRU had Net Liabilities of $37,232. Its assets were Cash at Bank of $2,568 and Debtors of $2,840. In the opinion of the 2013 NSWJRU Committee there is little likely hood that NSWJRU will be able to recover this loan. Therefore as at 31 October 2013 the NSWJRU Committee made a provision for the full amount of the loan.
Source: Page 11 of the NSW JRU annual Report http://www.nswjuniors.rugbynet.com.au/verve/_resources/2013_NSWJRU_Annual_Report.pdf
I wonder how much the QJRU, ACTJRU and other Junior Unions have "loaned" the AJRU?
It's just an incorporated association. It just makes it an official entity and mostly gives the people running it a clear separation between them and the entity.
USARugger
John Thornett (49)
Gotcha. I just thought they would be running as a non-profit LLC.
In Australia, the equivalent of an LLC is a Proprietary Limited company (Pty Ltd).
An incorporated association would be the equivalent of a non-profit LLC.
How does the separation thingy work when the same person appears to be the President of both the Incorporated Association (Official Entity 1 ) loaning the money, and the Incorporated Association (Official Entity 2) receiving the money.
It probably works very well when Official Entity 1 is repaid the money in accordance with whatever terms and conditions were agreed at the time, or has the same view of the current status of the transaction as Official Entity 2 does.
This doesn't seem to be the case here. One hopes that there is clear documentation establishing that everything was above board and that there was no conflict of interest or undue influence applied by the person potentially conflicted.
It probably works very well when Official Entity 1 is repaid the money in accordance with whatever terms and conditions were agreed at the time, or has the same view of the current status of the transaction as Official Entity 2 does.
This doesn't seem to be the case here. One hopes that there is clear documentation establishing that everything was above board and that there was no conflict of interest or undue influence applied by the person potentially conflicted.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Especially since the AJRU had been dormant for a number of years and was only recently awakened (to what purpose I'm not sure).
I've made similar comments before. It seems to me that the role of the State unions is to funnel money from the ARU to the grass roots. Is it really necessary in 2013 to have a layer of bureaucracy to do this? Couldn't all levels just affiliate with the ARU directly instead of through a state union? Same with the Country Rugby Unions in NSW & QLD, why can't regional unions (Central North, New England etc) affiliate with the ARU, instead of affiliating with the CRU, who then affiliate with the NSWRU, who then affiliate with the ARU. This is 19th century stuff.
I think it would make it difficult for any of them to carry out their day to day activities.
Who makes decisions? Who can spend money?
Most of these people are just volunteers, not employees so it would be very difficult to manage.
Who makes decisions? Who can spend money?
Most of these people are just volunteers, not employees so it would be very difficult to manage.
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