The Ideal NSW Schools Comp

[WorkingClassRugger]

Maybe we should only target 100,000 kids for $1m in the first year instead of 1 million kids for $10m.

That could work. Frankly, even that modest figure would be better than at present.

 

[Sideline Eye]

Add Epping Boys High School to the target list for development within the CHS system.

Some pretty impressive results from them in the Waratah Shield and Cup competition this year.

Also they will be rather close to the future Australian Rugby Development centre to be built after the election at TG Millner field.

Thanks Hugh. Took the words right out of my mouth

 

[Runner]

ISA Div 1 seems ok as is. Maybe drop 1 school to Div 2 to get rid of the Bye. 6 teams is not ideal but it works with AAGPS and CAS.
ISA Div 2 seems ok as is. Maybe drop All

Why not add one?

 

[I like to watch]

I understood the distinguishing factor between ISA div 1 & 2 was the number of teams the Schools fielded.

 

[HFTH]

THE ABOVE POSTS WERE MADE IN 2014 OR PRIOR TO THAT - ED




Thanks for all the posts about reorganising high school comps which is obviously one factor. But isn't the greater challenge trying to turnaround junior rugby enrolments. Generally boys have chosen their sports by year 7.

 

[Pfitzy]

Might have been said, but I can't be arsed reading all this documentation:

Call your little associations whatever you want. As long as we accept there are no boundaries to competition.

Regional competition is for all school XVs, but aim to support 1st and 2nd XV as a minimum. Some schools may have to combine their teams for lower grades to occur. Country rugby comps do this all the time.

Strong Regional comp for junior high school could be based on 10s rugby, while Primary schools should have a 7s program. Easiest way to spread the interest while introducing the technical stuff gradually.

For high schools, warmup games start in early Autumn so schools have time to get in shape. Internal trials etc.

First phase of competition (Regionals) start in Autumn, with 3 rounds to determine your position in the Region. Once that is determined, your 1st and 2nd XV go on to the schools Divisional competition. The rest stay locally to keep their skill level up and for replacements.

Divisional rounds will be based on seedings from the previous year, and weighted against your results in the Regionals. There is a system in my head but not sure how it works in practice.

Divisions should be 8 schools each, to give 7 rounds of competition in total before finals.

This way we're getting GPS/IAS/CHS/QED/RunDMC/whatever all facing off and at some point, getting exposed.

Schools - particularly coaches - will get a look at what they can improve on once they've come up against someone bigger and/or smarter than them.

 

[Rugbybloke123]

I think that area rounds could work as well e.g. sydney north - Shore, augustines, knox, scots, Aloys etc Sydney south - Trinity, St Pats, Newington, St Gregs etc Sydney West - Kings, Oakhill, Joeys, Riverview, Hills Sports etc.
Just throwing schools up and have forgotten many however I could see this working for term 2 a five round type comp and then term 3 is back to the GPS/CAS/ISA/CHS comps. Term 2 could also be used as selections for NSW as it gives selectors the opportunity to look at players from a wide range of schools against varying comps.

 

[Pfitzy]

The other element required - because seeding off last year is a bit of a bastard given changes in personnel - is having a bigger division (e.g. 10 teams) and then a split round with promotion and relegation for top/bottom 2.

Teams can "tank" if they want, but only the guys in the top divisions are going to get a look at higher honours most likely.

 

[Pfitzy]

I think that area rounds could work as well e.g. sydney north - Shore, augustines, knox, scots, Aloys etc Sydney south - Trinity, St Pats, Newington, St Gregs etc Sydney West - Kings, Oakhill, Joeys, Riverview, Hills Sports etc.

Need to consider how the country schools fold into this.

Not just about identifying individual talent, it must be remembered, but also about developing programs in schools to raise the bar. Every "good" kid who may not be a "great" kid helps lift the others higher.

 

[Rugbybloke123]

Need to consider how the country schools fold into this.

Not just about identifying individual talent, it must be remembered, but also about developing programs in schools to raise the bar. Every "good" kid who may not be a "great" kid helps lift the others higher.

Stannies, TAS and Kinross are good country schools and would provide a great competition for all schools, However i question some schools commitment to this e.g. Joeys who refuse to go to Armidale. I have a mate at an ISA school and he says some of the best weekends of Rugby are travelling to Orange against Kinross. But yes they must be involved in this as the reason for this comp is to develop Sydney/NSW rugby.

 

[Pfitzy]

And a similar competition for QLD. It is probably more cost effective to have the northern/north coast NSW schools go north actually.

 

[Rugby Central]

One of the biggest issues I can see is the logistics between schools. When you have Joeys (down to M's in my day) versus a small school you have to find games for everyone else.

What I am about to suggest could solve 2 substantial problems (Schools AND Juniors) but cause the purists to spit their Moet out their nose.

Term 2 - Every school interested in playing produces 2 squads of 22 per age group. All other kids play with the local Clubs. Clubs produce the same number of teams. Clubs and Schools play in the same competition

Term 3 - All Associations play their own competitions.

Representative games played after the season when every kid has had a chance to show AND DEVELOP their ability.

Pros

1. Every kid gets a game
2. School coaches learn how to manage the game with fresh subs.
3. Kids on the edge of top sides get picked on bench to prove themselves or, through Clubs, given the opportunity to start.
4. Rep selectors see everybody.
5. No trying to find extra schools to match team numbers
6. Schools not keen to run a rugby program, can outsource management to Clubs, kids get to play.
7. Club Rugby becomes Saturday sport again, at least in metropolitan Sydney

Cons

1. Break with tradition. This is a biggy for Associations and can't be dismissed.
2. When Schools horde the top players, Clubs potentially left as punching bags for top school sides.

I'm not saying this is a cure-all but worthy of consideration. It will revitalise Club rugby and allow the Schools to maintain much of what makes them so strong.

It could even answer Papworth et al concerns about the death of Club Rugby as we wouldn't lose all those kids from U15s - U17's. And without the price tag. Then each district club would receive a cohort of mates coming through with years of experience together and love of the game.

Just a thought bubble.....

 

[CatchnPass]

Wouldn't you run into issues with club numbers given majority who would want to play school rugby also probably play (or used to play) club? Plus in my experience the main reason for leaving club rugby at 15 and above is the demands of school rugby or a preference for league (eg Harold Matts). So I'm not sure this would see many more lads retained in club land.

 

[Rugby Central]

Hey CnP,

I can't respond to kids choice of League but if a kid wants to leave the sport, well, no change of competition structure will change that.

With regards to helping Clubland, how many Association Schools go down to D and E teams? Right there, if they move into Clubs there's a number of teams. As I said, there's the risk these Club teams might get a dusting but when you include various kids from state schools and players who would make the A's at another school then it would even out over time. And if choice is made part of the mix then a B team player might prefer to play Club in the A comp to prove his worth. What better selection and preparation for the term 3 competition.

What's the one thing everyone from the IRB down agrees would make rugby more competitive globally......exposing the "Minnows" to Tier 1 Rugby" Either the theory hold water or it doesn't. I believe it does.

Another reason kids leave the Club is lack of choice. They're told if they play for Club they can forget higher honours. That could still happen but if Clubs and schools are competing together then it's a hollow threat because selectors will still see these kids play, regardless......and they'll be back for the school side for term 3. Unless the coach wants to hold a grudge. I doubt the School would tolerate that kind of behaviour (bullying) from a teacher.

For the Clubs in Term 3 there would need to be a reorganisation of teams but it's no less disruptive than what the schools go through in term 2.

I'm not trying to shoot the messenger, but answer your justified concerns. I could be wrong, heaven knows my wife tells me so...a lot

 

[loiterer]

One of the biggest issues I can see is the logistics between schools. When you have Joeys (down to M's in my day) versus a small school you have to find games for everyone else.

What I am about to suggest could solve 2 substantial problems (Schools AND Juniors) but cause the purists to spit their Moet out their nose.

Term 2 - Every school interested in playing produces 2 squads of 22 per age group. All other kids play with the local Clubs. Clubs produce the same number of teams. Clubs and Schools play in the same competition

Term 3 - All Associations play their own competitions.

Representative games played after the season when every kid has had a chance to show AND DEVELOP their ability.

Pros

1. Every kid gets a game
2. School coaches learn how to manage the game with fresh subs.
3. Kids on the edge of top sides get picked on bench to prove themselves or, through Clubs, given the opportunity to start.
4. Rep selectors see everybody.
5. No trying to find extra schools to match team numbers
6. Schools not keen to run a rugby program, can outsource management to Clubs, kids get to play.
7. Club Rugby becomes Saturday sport again, at least in metropolitan Sydney

Cons

1. Break with tradition. This is a biggy for Associations and can't be dismissed.
2. When Schools horde the top players, Clubs potentially left as punching bags for top school sides.

I'm not saying this is a cure-all but worthy of consideration. It will revitalise Club rugby and allow the Schools to maintain much of what makes them so strong.


It could even answer Papworth et al concerns about the death of Club Rugby as we wouldn't lose all those kids from U15s - U17's. And without the price tag. Then each district club would receive a cohort of mates coming through with years of experience together and love of the game.

Just a thought bubble...

I don't know what you are trying to achieve here. I can't see it improving the quality or participation levels of rugby. The schools in general, and GPS in particular, play rugby because it instils the importance of performing as member of a team, it requires discipline and courage. Sport at those schools is compulsory, but they have a choice of sports.

Kids at GPS and CAS schools in particular may travel long distances to school and getting to training at a club after school is too hard, in many cases. When they are playing for a school team, the school organises the training and gets the kids to training.

Often, by high school, kids are more interested in playing rugby for school teams than they are for club teams. Your proposal to restrict the number of teams schools have makes playing rugby for school teams more difficult for many kids. Many of them will vote with their feet and move to soccer, afl or whatever else is on offer.

 

[Rugbybloke123]

Often, by high school, kids are more interested in playing rugby for school teams than they are for club teams. Your proposal to restrict the number of teams schools have makes playing rugby for school teams more difficult for many kids. Many of them will vote with their feet and move to soccer, afl or whatever else is on offer.

I recall my rugby coach back at school telling me in my last game of yr12 that there is no comparison to schools sport, playing with your mates at the place you spend every day at is one of the best things you will get to do and no team ever feels the same as school sport.
I agree with you 100 percent there is something very special about playing for any school team because you only have a certain amount of time to do it. I would've been livid if I wasn't able to play for my school because I didn't qualify as one of the top rugby players and was forced to play for a team which had no meaning to me and I didn't choose.

 

[JW BRIS RUGBY TRAGIC]

In essence this makes sense. I would add that we shouldn't be leaving out the kids playing club rugby. I mean a team of u16 are all the same, let them play all in. As you said have your different grades and an area / conference. Top 2 move through to a national playoff. When i go watch my daughter play nrtball on Saturday mornings all the schools and clubs are playing against each other easy.
I'm thinking this would bring some clubs back to life.

 

[Black & White]

I think that area rounds could work as well e.g. sydney north - Shore, augustines, knox, scots, Aloys etc Sydney south - Trinity, St Pats, Newington, St Gregs etc Sydney West - Kings, Oakhill, Joeys, Riverview, Hills Sports etc.
Just throwing schools up and have forgotten many however I could see this working for term 2 a five round type comp and then term 3 is back to the GPS/CAS/ISA/CHS comps. Term 2 could also be used as selections for NSW as it gives selectors the opportunity to look at players from a wide range of schools against varying comps.

In order to expand our game from its wonderful but very narrow social and regional base, an effort needs to be made with a selected number of our state schools. Hence, the limited resources of the ARU ( At least as far as junior development is concerned) could be devoted to a competition made up from some of following schools:- Hills Sports High
Westfields Sports High
Hunter Valley Sports High
Narrabeen Sports High
Illawarra Sports High
Farrier Agricultural High School
Epping Boys High
others could added as seen fit.
Such a rugby competition if taken up by the ARU and the State Government could added to the depth and breathe of our game. In areas where it is sadly lacking.

 

[Gilly]

^^^^ A school which certainly should be added to this list is St Edwards College, has produced a number of boys in previous years who have shone at both schoolboy or senior level.
There appears to be no urgent push to play rugby (or a competition to participate in) and a number of these boys ended up at other schools in their senior years -
In recent years some of the representative players include - Declan O'Donahue, James Wilkinson, Kirt Anthony, Nathan Gittoes, Connor Watson , Joe Williams , Max Stewart

 

[The Honey Badger]

^^^^ A school which certainly should be added to this list is St Edwards College, has produced a number of boys in previous years who have shone at both schoolboy or senior level.
There appears to be no urgent push to play rugby (or a competition to participate in) and a number of these boys ended up at other schools in their senior years -
In recent years some of the representative players include - Declan O'Donahue, James Wilkinson, Kirt Anthony, Nathan Gittoes, Connor Watson , Joe Williams , Max Stewart

St Edwards wouldn't be a state school, I don't think.