The Israel Folau saga

[Ignoto]

Most conservatives don't give a monkeys about what Folau said and believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Who thought that what Izzy said was reflective of the RA? Nobody. Only a fool would think that.

People need to stop taking offence and allow everybody to have their opinion but that is another argument.

Jeep, I acknowlege what you've written, but I feel this in particular has been debated throughly enough and that I've articulated a response from the other side in the previous pages.

 

[Slim 293]

The problem is that one opinion reflects the progressive left and the other the religious right.

No, both Pocock and Folau expressed their respective opinions on SSM without any issue..........

Folau's posts regarding gays going to hell is a separate matter.

 

[sidelineview]

Here's the actual press conference.

Clearly Cheika and Hooper (and Gibson) were required to front the media to make a statement on the issue and answer questions.

In my opinion, RA should have instructed all employees to reply with No Comment when queried about Folau as the matter had been referred to a hearing.

 

[Braveheart81]

In my opinion, RA should have instructed all employees to reply with No Comment when queried about Folau as the matter had been referred to a hearing.

I disagree. I think that would be the way they end up putting all fans offside rather than just a segment of them.

 

[Derpus]

I disagree. I think that would be the way they end up putting all fans offside rather than just a segment of them.

RA were definitely in a no win situation, regardless of what they did.

If it's radio silence then each side of the debate will see them as advocating for the other by omission.

And then, if they dismiss his comments as outside their purview then they aggravate those who think it's homophobic (i think, the majority - just about).

And if they take action as they have done then they aggravate those who think Izzy was within his rights.

Regardless of who you are or what your beliefs are, you can see how he royally fucked RA. And at the end of the day, he did it for his beliefs, which is a selfish reason to do something.

 

[sidelineview]

I disagree. I think that would be the way they end up putting all fans offside rather than just a segment of them.

As Pauline would say: please explain?
How would that have put fans off? RA put out the statements and make the decisions as employers.
It would have shown a professionalism from RA, but as it was it was amateur hour allowing coach and players to comment on something that provoked emotion.

Cheika and Hooper were on a hiding to nothing. They couldn't hide their disappointment. They tried, but ...

They voiced the party line with emphasis on words and phrases like Team, Team values and unity, Respectfulness, everyone has the right to believe what they want but in a respectful manner..... Best team environment, diversity.

Cheika said Folau didnt get back to him, he crossed a line after last time, shared values, he couldn't select him as it stood etc etc etc.

Genia reacted in an emotional way. You cant blame him but as if that wasnt a chance of happening so soon after the event...

In other words Folau was on the outer, the odds were stacked against him and public sentiment would be provoked by coach and players reactions ...... and I do mean reactions.
It all added up to the fact that Folau wasnt going to be welcomed back into the team by statement or inference.

RA should have kept the issue objective and allowed the appropriate process to run its course and instructed their coaches and players to do what they're employed to do.
It should have been administrators fronting the media.

A very shabby way to deal with the problem, as difficult as it was, and it showed a distinct lack of leadership from Castle and co.

 

[Dan54]

Put aside what Izzy said, does anybody think that Cheika and Hooper can bring the wallabies together after they stuck their oar in and helped Castle throw Izzy under the bus? What do you think that the religious Polynesian boys like Toupo and Kerevi think? Would they think that the coach and the captain have their back, or would they think, I better keep any opinion I have to myself incase those guys throw me after Izzy.

This has been the biggest mistake of the whole saga. Cheika should have just shut up and let Castle handle it. By taking side of the administration over his players he has created a gap. I cant see the wallabies getting out of the quarters. After that both captain and coach need to fall on their swords.

Can I ask another question fellas? When do boys of island heritage stop being called Polynesian or Tongan ,Fijian etc, and are considered Australian? A genuine question, as Izzy was born in Aus wasn't he? I don't think many who's parents come from Scotland, England etc are still called Poms etc.
I not trying to stir, just a little bugbear of mine, same with people of Asian ancestry , how many generations if you have a different colour skin do we say they are Aussies?

 

[sidelineview]

RA were definitely in a no win situation, regardless of what they did.

If it's radio silence then each side of the debate will see them as advocating for the other by omission.

And then, if they dismiss his comments as outside their purview then they aggravate those who think it's homophobic (i think, the majority - just about).

And if they take action as they have done then they aggravate those who think Izzy was within his rights.

Regardless of who you are or what your beliefs are, you can see how he royally fucked RA. And at the end of the day, he did it for his beliefs, which is a selfish reason to do something.

Not everyone thinks someone having the conviction of their beliefs is selfishness, but if you think that then so be it. There were and are varying degrees as to how people viewed Folau's post and for his reasons to do so. You're dogmatic in your view and you're welcome to it.

However, how RA handled it from that point was on them, not anyone else.

They had a process to follow, they would have been wise to take all the emotion out of it from their end and from the coaches and players point of view, and stick to the process.

If any statements had to be made, the people who are paid big money to administer the game should have fronted up to the media and not put their employees in a no win situation.
That was their job.

 

[Lorenzo]

Not everyone thinks someone having the conviction of their beliefs is selfishness, but if you think that then so be it. There were and are varying degrees as to how people viewed Folau's post and for his reasons to do so. You're dogmatic in your view and you're welcome to it.

However, how RA handled it from that point was on them, not anyone else.

They had a process to follow, they would have been wise to take all the emotion out of it from their end and from the coaches and players point of view, and stick to the process.

If any statements had to be made, the people who are paid big money to administer the game should have fronted up to the media and not put their employees in a no win situation.
That was their job.

God. You are just searching for things to moan about now. Isn't Cheika old enough and ugly enough to handle a couple of questions about this? It's certainly the image he likes to project.

 

[sidelineview]

God. You are just searching for things to moan about now. Isn't Cheika old enough and ugly enough to handle a couple of questions about this? It's certainly the image he likes to project.

Absolutely not, not under the circumstances.
He probably felt like saying Folau can f**k off; its too much of a headache.
But it happened and it wasnt his job to deal with it and answer difficult questions.

It was the administrators responsibility; the ones on the big money.
Cheika and Hooper dont get paid to deal with stuff like this. They get paid to coach and play.
It was an emotional issue and a hard one for anyone to get their head around at the time and obviously still is.

I agree with Folau in his statement that he doesnt have confidence in RA.
Ditto for me. Maxwell Smart would have done a better job.
And that's what was needed: the cone of silence from employees under RA's leadership and instructions.
IMO.

Whether RA are proven to have dismissed Folau lawfully or not, if this goes to court, they still didnt do themselves any favours as far as RA's reputation is concerned.

 

[Pfitzy]

Two things:

If somebody got offended well that is their problem.

and

I think that a lot of the opinions voiced by Pocock are batsh#t crazy. But he has the right to voice those opinions

Who did Pocock offend?

Can you give examples of the batshit crazy opinions Pocock has offered up?

we should care more about the rugby and less about the politics. We have enough of that in our everyday life and we don't need this in Rugby.

Look, I agree, but Rugby is political by its very nature. Anyone who has been around the game should know that.

 

[KOB1987]

Can I ask another question fellas? When do boys of island heritage stop being called Polynesian or Tongan ,Fijian etc, and are considered Australian? A genuine question, as Izzy was born in Aus wasn't he? I don't think many who's parents come from Scotland, England etc are still called Poms etc.
I not trying to stir, just a little bugbear of mine, same with people of Asian ancestry , how many generations if you have a different colour skin do we say they are Aussies?

But it's their heritage that is being referred to, not their nationality. If they live here, try to get work, pay their bills, and don't try to disenfranchise themselves, they're Aussies. POMs have pretty much the same cultural and social values as us so it doesn't come into play as often.

Out of curiosity, is it different in NZ?

 

[Braveheart81]

It was the administrators responsibility; the ones on the big money.
Cheika and Hooper dont get paid to deal with stuff like this. They get paid to coach and play.
It was an emotional issue and a hard one for anyone to get their head around at the time and obviously still is.

I agree with Folau in his statement that he doesnt have confidence in RA.
Ditto for me. Maxwell Smart would have done a better job.
And that's what was needed: the cone of silence from employees under RA's leadership and instructions.
IMO.

Whether RA are proven to have dismissed Folau lawfully or not, if this goes to court, they still didnt do themselves any favours as far as RA's reputation is concerned.

This is objectively not the case. Media is a substantial part of professional sport, particularly for the captain and coach.

I think it is very clear that the coach and captain (and couch of Folau's Super Rugby side) fronted the media at that point because they were there to talk on behalf of the team and the players rather than providing any information about Folau's ongoing employment.

Anyway, we are at polar opposites on this issue so it's probably best to leave it.

 

[sidelineview]

This is objectively not the case. Media is a substantial part of professional sport, particularly for the captain and coach.

I think it is very clear that the coach and captain (and couch of Folau's Super Rugby side) fronted the media at that point because they were there to talk on behalf of the team and the players rather than providing any information about Folau's ongoing employment.

Anyway, we are at polar opposites on this issue so it's probably best to leave it.

Who should have fronted the media is the question. Employer or employees?

Ok, I'll drop it, but its crystal clear they thought Folau was on the outer and that he wasnt a team player, and that wasnt their place to say or infer that seeing as the issue was headed to a hearing.
And they shouldn't have been placed in that position because anything they said or inferred was on the record and could be referred back to them in future.
Say nothing and get on with their respective jobs was the wisest order of the day, but they were placed in that unenviable position.
Someone said Cheika and Hooper threw Folau under the bus but RA threw Cheika and Hooper under one imo.
Pretty gutless if you ask me.

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree.

 

[oztimmay]

Time to jog on from this cyclical argument, gentleman.

 

[Pfitzy]

Probably time to lock the thread until some kind of other action crystallises

 

[Athilnaur]

Jeep, I acknowlege what you've written, but I feel this in particular has been debated throughly enough and that I've articulated a response from the other side in the previous pages.

Fair play. If only other participants could resist the temptation to repeat themselves ad nauseum interspersed with empty accusations of nonsense!

Well said Jeep - but I wish you luck engaging with progressive posters who don't discuss issues but express outrage.

 

[Kenny Powers]

Looks like the lobby groups are lining up, Advance Australia the conservative version of Get-Up are going to run a campaign of 'save free speech' with Israel Folau front and centre.

https://www.advanceaustralia.org.au/save_free_speech

Are asking a few questions of Rugby Australia Directors

Apart from helping to defend Free Speech and Israel Folau we would like to ask a couple of the Australian Rugby Union Board members a few questions.
The first is to Dr Brett Robinson, the Deputy Chairman of the Australian Rugby Union…
'Dear Dr Robinson
As Chairman of the Board of a Christian College of the Uniting Church of Australia (King’s College) within the University of Queensland, how do you reconcile your position there with wanting to sack Israel Folau for quoting the bible?'
The second is for the Chairman of the Board of the Australian Rugby Union
'Dear Mr Clyne
How do you justify your close association and involvement with your former School which bases it teachings on the bible, the same Bible you want to sack Israel Folau for quoting?'
Cameron Clyne (Class of 1985) is a significant member of the St Dominic’s College community, source: St Dominic’s website.
We’ll be seeking answers from Dr Robinson and Mr Clyne over the coming days, please sign our petition to show your support for Free Speech and Israel Folau’s right to quote a book, without losing his job.
To have your say, we encourage you to contact Australia Rugby on (02) 8005 5555 and tell them not to sack or force Israel Folau out of Australian Rugby. Given the emotion involved, it’s always best to make our point politely.
SIGN THE PETITION

Free Speech is vital to our well-functioning democracy.
The right to free speech, in a western civilisation is one of the central tenents which sets us apart from regimes like China, North Korea, Venezuela and Cuba.
Australians support the right to free speech and to agree or disagree with a person speech. Importantly, we believe in the right of any Australian to have free speech.
Minority Groups, elites, public policy and virtue signalling organisations are trying to undermine our right to free speech, culture and our traditions.
Australians should be proud of our country and our right to free speech.

 

[Slim 293]

Dear Advance Australia,

Israel Folau was not sacked for "quoting the bible".

Therefore, your questions are not pertinent.

Regards,

etc.

 

[Derpus]

His post is still up though........ it truly boggles the old noodle.

I think vast swathes of the population are confusing freedom of speech with freedom from consequence.

Think this thread has reached it's end.