The Wallabies Thread

[Tomikin]

That’s the bit I think people are missing. For mine, Arnold is being held out by Coleman, not Rodda. And Simmons unless Cheika decides he wants a different profile lock on the bench.

I have no doubt that Arnold will get a shot at some point in the RC - whether it is from the outset. If he proves me ‘wrong’ and that he and Coleman are the locking pair to take us forward, then I will enjoy being proven wrong. He certainly brings physicality. But I would expect that we will see a change then in the backrow and the re-emergence of Ned.

Anyway - much better argument to be having about our locks then the one we were having 2 years ago.

Yeah its about what you attack the game with, Id go Arnold Coleman to smash it from the start then pull who dies first then throw Rodda or Simmions although the more exoerience Rodda gets the less Simmikns is needed. What a joy it is to have a tight five thats really solid.

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[Tomikin]

That’s the bit I think people are missing. For mine, Arnold is being held out by Coleman, not Rodda. And Simmons unless Cheika decides he wants a different profile lock on the bench.

I have no doubt that Arnold will get a shot at some point in the RC - whether it is from the outset. If he proves me ‘wrong’ and that he and Coleman are the locking pair to take us forward, then I will enjoy being proven wrong. He certainly brings physicality. But I would expect that we will see a change then in the backrow and the re-emergence of Ned.

Anyway - much better argument to be having about our locks then the one we were having 2 years ago.

Your probably right with ned as at the moment Tui is playing the second bash brother at 6.

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[TSR]

I do rate Simmons - but given Cheika likes big ball runners I could see him starting Tui & Rodda & finishing with Arnold & Hanigan.

 

[Joe Blow]

Coleman and Arnold are both proficient in the set piece and are very physical and have good ball skills. Simmons lacks the physicality at times but is technically strong. He has improved his ball carrying. Rodda is getting better fast.

Coleman and Arnold can fill either role in the lock combo. With Tui at 6 and then the Pooper we have a very physical pack.

 

[Up the Guts]

Coleman and Arnold are both proficient in the set piece and are very physical and have good ball skills. Simmons lacks the physicality at times but is technically strong. He has improved his ball carrying. Rodda is getting better fast.

Coleman and Arnold can fill either role in the lock combo. With Tui at 6 and then the Pooper we have a very physical pack.

And both the front row and the reserve front row are very strong. I can see arguments for both Rodda and Arnold but if we have a side with Arnold, Coleman, Tui, Tupou, TPN then our pack would have the capacity to outmuscle NZ. I think we definitely have the edge at scrum time over the ABs and should look to put them under the pump there.

 

[Derpus]

There are another 10+ tests to go this year. Remember last year, with roughly the same depth, we ended up with Enever starting due to injuries. I'd say most options at lock will get a decent amount of game time.

 

[zer0]

And both the front row and the reserve front row are very strong. I can see arguments for both Rodda and Arnold but if we have a side with Arnold, Coleman, Tui, Tupou, TPN then our pack would have the capacity to outmuscle NZ. I think we definitely have the edge at scrum time over the ABs and should look to put them under the pump there.

Why?

 

[Derpus]

Why?

 

[cyclopath]

I think scrum dominance takes more than just 1 prop, Derpus. I wouldn't be too sure of it just yet.

 

[TSR]

Yeah - especially 1 21 year old prop in what is essentially his first year of test rugby.

He’s had a break out year so far. Really looking forward to seeing how he goes in the RC but I won’t be surprised if he has the odd slip up as he goes.

 

[Derpus]

I think scrum dominance takes more than just 1 prop, Derpus. I wouldn't be too sure of it just yet.

Yeah but to hell with it. I feel like being positive.

 

[Up the Guts]

Why?

I wasn't that impressed by any of the NZ Super Rugby scrums. The Brumbies dished it out to the Chiefs in the penultimate round, the Blues scrum that got completely dismantled by the Reds managed to get a penalty try (or was it pushover try) against the Crusaders, the Rebels, not known for their scrummaging, managed to inflict damage upon the Highlanders, and the Hurricanes had probably the worst of the NZ conference.

Perhaps, you could argue that NZ's better scrummagers are more evenly distributed across their teams whereas the better scrummagers are concentrated in the Reds and Brumbies in Australia. Man for man, however, I think we still carry an edge, Big Karl for example, who came on against the French and immediately got the scrum going forward for NZ, got done when he was up against the Brumbies. I'm sure when the ABs come together they'll sort it out and there won't be any massive dramas but certainly off the back of the Super Season I believe we have an edge at scrum time.

 

[zer0]

The biggest problem with each of those examples is that none directly involve the Crusaders. Given the AB's front five will be the Crusaders + Madman Retallick, that's a pretty important detail. That Toomaga-Allen or Ta'avao buckled against the Wallabies props in Super Rugby is ultimately inconsequential as they're not going to be responsible for the Black scrum. Add to that I believe Nepo Laulala is scheduled to return for the RC as well. He and Tu'inukuafe should be on the bench, along with S.Barrett. If so, then there will be plenty of scrummaging tastiness to come in the RC.

EDIT: Also, going by the SANZAAR stats, the NZ sides occupy the top spots for % scrums won.

 

[Up the Guts]

The problem is that the Crusaders didn’t play the Reds and when they played the Brumbies Sio and Arnold were out. Judging the Crusaders and Reds scrums by a mutual team they both played in the Blues sees the Reds clearly dominant. Tu’inukuafe was the best scrummager for NZ against France yet he was the one done by the Brumbies not Ta’avao.

Anyway a lot of this involves hypotheticals and we’ll have to wait till the first test to see what happens. Still I’m confident our front rowers are more dominant at scrum time man for man whether they will be able to take down the NZ pack as a whole is another matter.

 

[Wilson]

The flip side of that is none of the reds loose heads will feature, with JP Smith arguably putting in the best scrumaging performances of a lh in an Australian side

 

[Brumby Runner]

Yeah but to hell with it. I feel like being positive.

Tahs and Rebels aside, both the Reds and Brumbies scrums were at least competitive and usually had the upper hand against all of the NZ sides they played this year. Hard to see why the amalgamated packs won't also favour the Wallabies. I agree, Tupou is also certainly a potential point of difference in the Wallabies favour.

 

[Braveheart81]

I think this question is the heart of most of this discussion around locks and says a lot about reality vs perception. I find it somewhat ironic you can easily see the value in Simmons, but can’t see the same in Rodda who is essentially a better version of Simmons.

With regards to your first question he is very good in the tight, makes strong, often dominant tackles, is accurate at the breakdown, carry’s over the gain line, and has a very good work rate both on and off the ball - and he did all those things in the Irish series. He appears strong in the scrum and is a good lineout operater.

So I’ll turn the question around - what do you want from him? I concede he doesn’t make a lot of trampling 10 metre surges. He also doesn’t make 60 metre clearance kicks or 30 metre right to left cut outs and I think most would recognise that isn’t what he is there for.

The role of ball runners is taken up by others who get the chance to do their job because both Rodda & Simmons do theirs.

I agree, he is a workrate lock who is good at set piece, makes plenty of tackles and cleans out rucks. His tackle numbers etc. from the Ireland series were very good. He is doing what he is being picked to do.

He is not a barnstorming ball runner and offloader.

The point I was making is trying to cast Rodda as being a "dominating lock" in the same vein as Coleman etc. is not accurate in my view. He is not wildly different in the way he plays to Simmons which some have been trying to suggest.

In terms of style Coleman is potentially keeping Arnold out there, but given the possible lineout callers, Arnold won't displace Coleman because we'd need to start another lineout caller.

 

[Braveheart81]

I wonder whether Cheika will wait until after Friday night's game to announce his trimmed down Bledisloe Cup squad?

It does seem like there aren't that many additional players in camp currently and most of the ones there are just filling gaps left by missing Waratahs.

 

[Joe Blow]

Is there any reason why you cannot have both locks dominating physically? If they cover all of the bases between them by having high work rates, good ball running/passing skills and are both good at the set piece then there is no reason not to pick them.
Both NZ and SA generally have two or all of there locks as allrounders. The only reason we have not at times in the past is because we just have not had the luxury of so many legitimate options.

 

[TSR]

Is there any reason why you cannot have both locks dominating physically? If they cover all of the bases between them by having high work rates, good ball running/passing skills and are both good at the set piece then there is no reason not to pick them.
Both NZ and SA generally have two or all of there locks as allrounders. The only reason we have not at times in the past is because we just have not had the luxury of so many legitimate options.

Maybe it is a matter of interpretation, but I don't agree with your assessment of all of the New Zealand & Springbok locks as 'all rounders' in the way you seem to be implying.

Retallick is. I'll give you him. He is truly a freak in his combination of physical impact and work rate. It's why many consider him the best player in the world.

I will put a disclaimer in - for one reason or another I have seen very little of the Springbok Locks - either at super rugby or test rugby over the last 12 months. But from what I've seen none of them match Retallick. Neither do any from recent memory that spring to my mind. None of Matfield, Botha, Etzebeth or Thorn were both to the extent Retallick is.

Whitelock isnt either. He is superbly athletic, skillful and technically very good. It may get seem like splitting hairs, but I don't agree his athleticism is the same as Retallick's physical presence. I dunno, who is the other lock who you reckon is an 'All rounder' in the way you are suggesting. I would have to say I certainly don't think Arnold is, despite how well he is playing.

I also think the implications of your post sells Rodda short. He is not an enforcer as such, but he doesn't go missing, he hits and sticks and he does get through a lot of physical work in the tight.

If Arnold can get through a similar work rate than great, but I don't think he can.