Thoughts on Folau to rugby

[In the know I think.]

It just seems a shame if IF has signed with Uni.

I'll bet that there are some pretty disappointed players, administrators, and unpaid volunteer development officers from Sydney's Deep Inner West that would be gutted at this news.

The Emus seem to be struggling big time (depending on who you listen to), the Two Blues seem to be coming right after a couple of years of dedicated hard work from the GM and Coach Christini. IF playing the two or three cameo Shute Shield games on the Western side of King Georges Road would have been a marvellous boost to the clubs in the west.

Uni need another Super Player, like Jay Leno needs another car. A very very short sighted decision,

Will Issy actually be studying at Uni perchance?

My gripe is not with Uni at all. The issue is, many (I can't say none) of the clubs have been stonewalled out of the option of having him. No one will talk. Calls not returned.
If I was on the board of Uni and NSW came and said do you want another S15 player I'd have to say yes.
The issue is that as far as I know, no other club, certainly not ours (We are inner west, have good facilities and are cashed up) have been given the option.
Uni are only doing what any other club would do, their board must act in the best interests of their club and they do a good job at it.
When I played Uni were very poor on the field and a guaranteed win in all grades (Early 80s) they should be proud of where they are.
The NSW and ARU are the ones to blame her not Uni.
The AFL who could buy and sell Rugby in this country, deemed Issi would be a great boost for Western Sydney and he was. We who are struggling disagree.
There is a reason Issi didn't play for Collingwood or the Swans, the AFL get is yet we seem to know better.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

My gripe is not with Uni at all. The issue is, many (I can't say none) of the clubs have been stonewalled out of the option of having him. No one will talk. Calls not returned.
If I was on the board of Uni and NSW came and said do you want another S15 player I'd have to say yes.
The issue is that as far as I know, no other club, certainly not ours (We are inner west, have good facilities and are cashed up) have been given the option.
Uni are only doing what any other club would do, their board must act in the best interests of their club and they do a good job at it.
When I played Uni were very poor on the field and a guaranteed win in all grades (Early 80s) they should be proud of where they are.
The NSW and ARU are the ones to blame her not Uni.
The AFL who could buy and sell Rugby in this country, deemed Issi would be a great boost for Western Sydney and he was. We who are struggling disagree.
There is a reason Issi didn't play for Collingwood or the Swans, the AFL get is yet we seem to know better.

Fully agree - that's why I said its not about and cannot be dealt with by reference to Uni's professionalism.
direction from above: a mid term guiding mind for the good of the game

 

[Quick Hands]

Fully agree - that's why I said its not about and cannot be dealt with by reference to Uni's professionalism.
direction from above: a mid term guiding mind for the good of the game

The governing body actually taking proactive measures for the good of the game. Isn't that what they're supposed to be there for?

As I understand it, in the olden days, once a player left the university, they were no longer allowed to play for them. This was Sydney Uni policy, not a directive from above. So even Waratah or Wallabies who finished their degree had to find another club to play for.

 

[wamberal]

It will be interesting to hear Bruce Ross attempt to defend the indefensible, as he often manages to.

Don't these idiots realise that they need to use their considerable power to improve the Shute Shield competition as a whole, not just their own little dung-heap, otherwise there won't be a competition for them to compete in at all, eventually.

 

[Quick Hands]

It will be interesting to hear Bruce Ross attempt to defend the indefensible, as he often manages to.

Don't these idiots realise that they need to use their considerable power to improve the Shute Shield competition as a whole, not just their own little dung-heap, otherwise there won't be a competition for them to compete in at all, eventually.

Either they don't realise it or they do realise it and won't do anything about it.

A couple of stats to add some evidence to the discussion. From information on club websites Penrith have 3 junior/village clubs and Parramatta have 6. That's 9 covering more than half of Sydney and some of these seem to be quite small in numbers.

On the peninsula, Manly have 5 and Warringah have 6 in a much smaller area with a relatively small population.

It's in the Parramatta and Penrith areas that we need to expand. Having Folau play a couple of games for either and be a local ambassador would be worth thousands in good will and publicity alone.

Watching Izzy stand of the wing while the Uni forwards truck the ball up all day ain't gunna win over the west.

 

[kbw]

I have no time for Folau.
Nothing but a mercenary, that was reasonably good when in the NRL (yet very overrated) and absolutely useless in AFL.
I servereley doubt he has enough brains to pick up the subtleties of playing rugby.

Given he has made huge dollars playing AFL poorly, he really isn't worth more than $50K.

 

[Paradox]

Tah fans getting annoyed about Sydney Uni stealing all the top draw players is analogous to non-Tah fans gettting annoyed about the Tahs getting the best playing roster in Super rugby (of the Aussie teams). The old, we produce all the players argument, carries no weight when non-NSW players and/or leaguies feature heavily for the Tahs (Rogers, Sailor, Tuquiri, Tahu, and now Folau). I'm not complaining, just making an observation. Merry Christmas.

 

[Quick Hands]

Tah fans getting annoyed about Sydney Uni stealing all the top draw players is analogous to non-Tah fans gettting annoyed about the Tahs getting the best playing roster in Super rugby (of the Aussie teams). The old, we produce all the players argument, carries no weight when non-NSW players and/or leaguies feature heavily for the Tahs (Rogers, Sailor, Tuquiri, Tahu, and now Folau). I'm not complaining, just making an observation. Merry Christmas.

Noone "steals" players because noone "owns" them in the first place.

The crucial point is that every other football code has taken steps to have an even competition. In some codes that involves a draft, in others a salary cap, in others a restriction on foreign players, it's a no-brainer really.

Noone yet has produced an argument showing that it is better to have one completely dominant club in a competition, rather than a number of strong clubs testing each other every week.

I include a relevent paragraph, taken from the Sydney Uni website and ask "is this good for the game as a whole?"

"The Club has had great success in recent years, consistently featuring in, and winning, Grand Finals. The Club has won the Club Championship fourteen times, including the last nine years in a row. The Colts Club Championship has also been won ten times including the last eight years in a row.
In 2012, all eight teams from the Club contested the finals series, with seven of these teams claiming Minor Premierships. From here, six teams claimed the Major Premierships including the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th Grade teams, as well as Colts teams 1 and 2."

 

[en_force_er]

Noone "steals" players because noone "owns" them in the first place.

The crucial point is that every other football code has taken steps to have an even competition. In some codes that involves a draft, in others a salary cap, in others a restriction on foreign players, it's a no-brainer really.

Noone yet has produced an argument showing that it is better to have one completely dominant club in a competition, rather than a number of strong clubs testing each other every week.

I include a relevent paragraph, taken from the Sydney Uni website and ask "is this good for the game as a whole?"

"The Club has had great success in recent years, consistently featuring in, and winning, Grand Finals. The Club has won the Club Championship fourteen times, including the last nine years in a row. The Colts Club Championship has also been won ten times including the last eight years in a row.
In 2012, all eight teams from the Club contested the finals series, with seven of these teams claiming Minor Premierships. From here, six teams claimed the Major Premierships including the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th Grade teams, as well as Colts teams 1 and 2."

Not sure about other states but I can assure you the VFL, Big V BBall, VPL Soccer, etc, have no salary caps/drafts or anything maintaining the competitiveness of any of their clubs. It's all about money and other resources there too.

Fair enough it's not Uni centric like rugby but it IS more about who has the biggest benefactor (there's even rumours of plenty of illegal money laundering going through clubs in some sports).

Super Rugby has a salary cap, club rugby does not just like basically every equivalent league in every sport in Australia.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

the VFL, Big V BBall, VPL Soccer, etc,

But none of these sports have the state body (or its wholly owned subsidiary) attracting bigger names from other codes, paying them huge dollars and then doing nothing to assist the competitiveness of the "feeder" competition which it, to some extent, relies on.
In this case it represents a complete abdication of responsibility for and interest in the tier from which many of the s 15 players come, and from which in a properly thought out development system they would/ought to come.
The appropriate system to compare what happens in Shute Shield is probably the NZRU system which, as I understand it, directs players to the provinces to suit its own medium term aims.
For a bloke on $650k his employer should be able to tell him to walk down george street with a gold chain around his waist and finger bun sticking out of his **** (as roy and HG once put it) if that is likely to assist the code.

 

[Quick Hands]

Not sure about other states but I can assure you the VFL, Big V BBall, VPL Soccer, etc, have no salary caps/drafts or anything maintaining the competitiveness of any of their clubs. It's all about money and other resources there too.

Fair enough it's not Uni centric like rugby but it IS more about who has the biggest benefactor (there's even rumours of plenty of illegal money laundering going through clubs in some sports).

Super Rugby has a salary cap, club rugby does not just like basically every equivalent league in every sport in Australia.

But what is in the best interests of the game? (particularly in Sydney)

It's not Uni's fault, they're doing their best.

This is where NSWRU can be proactive. As a very first and simple step, players who sign for the Waratahs and who haven't come through the junior ranks of one club or are a genuine student at SU are allocated to a club in need. At the moment the code needs to expand its presence in western Sydney, so where NSW rugby needs these players is at Parramatta and Penrith.

 

[en_force_er]

But what is in the best interests of the game? (particularly in Sydney)

It's not Uni's fault, they're doing their best.

This is where NSWRU can be proactive. As a very first and simple step, players who sign for the Waratahs and who haven't come through the junior ranks of one club or are a genuine student at SU are allocated to a club in need. At the moment the code needs to expand its presence in western Sydney, so where NSW rugby needs these players is at Parramatta and Penrith.

I agree. What I don't agree with is "crucial points" being used as proof which don't stack up.

I guess this sounds meaner than I meant it but I do honestly think a good point is weakened by a bad argument.

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree. What I don't agree with is "crucial points" being used as proof which don't stack up.

I guess this sounds meaner than I meant it but I do honestly think a good point is weakened by a bad argument.

I like to base my posts/opinons on some evidence. I don't know much about the competitions that you mention, but they seem to be secondary competitions. Rugby has designs on being a major football code in Sydney and its premier club rugby competition is the Shute Shield. The premier club AFL competition in Victoria is the AFL ie most people would follow Collingwood, Carlton etc in addition to any VFL club. Same with NRL in Sydney, very few people would identify themselves with their local 2nd level club, they follow Manly, Souths etc. Administrators of those competitions realise that it is in their interest to make them as level as possible. Yes they are national competitions, but they are club based.

Even in the ACT, the governing body there allocates Brumbies players based on need to the clubs to avoid the situation that we have in Sydney.

The way to get people involved in rugby is to have a local team to for them to play for and follow in the premier rugby competition in this city. It gets the whole community involved. They won't necessarily follow/support the Waratahs because they happen to live in Sydney. There are plenty of Brumbies, Reds and NZ super rugby supporters all over Sydney who are involved in club rugby.

And I don't take offence at anything you said, we're all just expressing our thoughts.

 

[en_force_er]

Okay then Quick Hands.

I see you don't define Shute Shield as a secondary competition then, which is incorrect in my opinion. I don't see how you can see more parallel in the NRL then the VFL or even Rugby League's NSW Cup.

Sure, there are structural differences, like how many of our Super Rugby players will play a portion of the club season but that is becoming rarer and the reality is SS is a semi-pro 3rd Tier (some would argue it shouldn't even be that).

I agree something must be done to even up the SS and player rationing could be that. However, a draft or salary cap (as you alluded to) is to my knowledge unprecedented at this level of sport in any code. The last attempt at evening the comp (the points system) isn't widely publicised and obviously has not worked.

In Folau's case you could "club allocate" but the reality is the majority of players have come through the SS club system. In fact, Folau, Lane, and Lucas are the only Waratahs without a pre-signing club affiliation (and one could argue Lane has one because of his father).

 

[Quick Hands]

Okay then Quick Hands.

I see you don't define Shute Shield as a secondary competition then, which is incorrect in my opinion. I don't see how you can see more parallel in the NRL then the VFL or even Rugby League's NSW Cup.

Sure, there are structural differences, like how many of our Super Rugby players will play a portion of the club season but that is becoming rarer and the reality is SS is a semi-pro 3rd Tier (some would argue it shouldn't even be that).

I agree something must be done to even up the SS and player rationing could be that. However, a draft or salary cap (as you alluded to) is to my knowledge unprecedented at this level of sport in any code. The last attempt at evening the comp (the points system) isn't widely publicised and obviously has not worked.

In Folau's case you could "club allocate" but the reality is the majority of players have come through the SS club system. In fact, Folau, Lane, and Lucas are the only Waratahs without a pre-signing club affiliation (and one could argue Lane has one because of his father).

Not saying that Shute Shield is equivalent to AFL or NRL in terms of professionalism/size, but in terms of structure, club rugby is still state based and it is the premier rugby competition in NSW, i.e. there's not a club competition above it.

I wasn't suggesting a draft or salary cap necessarily, just providing examples of how different competitions address the issue. They're all unique in their own way, so NSWRU will have to sit down an work out how to do it. Unfortunately at the moment they don't even seem to have identified that an issue exists. As I suggested a small and easy starting point would be that players without prior affiliation are allocated. It's only a small step and might only affect a few players but it's a start.

Not sure if there's only 3 Waratahs who haven't come through the club system, Berrick Barnes came from private school/league/reds to Waratahs and straight to SU. And there would be a few more SU players who have been through the junior club system at other clubs, but have ended up there for whatever reason, plus country boarders from private schools.

Two of the big problems that rugby faces in western Sydney are the lack of strong clubs/infastructure and that many view it as being an elitist sport played by those on the North Shore, Eastern Suburbs and inner city. Folau going to Uni would tend to confirm the latter and be a lost opportunity to support the clubs out there.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Okay then Quick Hands.
In fact, Folau, Lane, and Lucas are the only Waratahs without a pre-signing club affiliation (and one could argue Lane has one because of his father).

at the moment - over the years there have been plenty

 

[TOCC]

at the moment - over the years there have been plenty

Berrick Barnes for starters

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Berrick Barnes for starters

Must be Xmas - we agree on something!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

^^^^^^ bah humbug, Xmas indeed.

Inside Shoulder, that may have just cost you the "constantly butting heads" title at the 2012 Gaggerlander Awards.

 

[Jnor]

Has anyone actually seen anything official at all confirming this?