• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

TRC Round 1: South Africa v Australia, Sunday 21 July 1:05am AEST

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Because of the Saffa rush defence?

Also because all those players performed in Soup rugby against other Australians. Not a giant Bokke pack at altitutde. Its hardly surprising they look much worse against much better opposition.

See the Brumbies absolute capitulation against the Pum...... Jaguares.

I'm not as convinced as Slim. I think we have a tendency to overhype players from our own province who turn out consistently passable performances and act shocked when an amalgam doesnt translate to a high quality test pack.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
The Saffas weren't much better in Super Rugby than the Australian teams (they were 0 - 5 against the Brumbies).........

But the Aussie pack features some of the best performers in Super Rugby this year - granted, a couple of those props weren't there on the weekend, but the players that were looked confused as to what their roles were in general play.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Yeah don't get me wrong, the coaching is fucked too. I'm just not as convinced the personnel are there.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
It's just another example of our coaching/tactical issues.....

I staunchly maintain we have the players to be more successful, but their talents are being wasted at this level.


It's the conclusion I've come to as well Slim. I look across that squad and see good players, but there is something wrong with the game plan and the way they are being coached.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
And he is not a good distributor. That late pass to LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) was pretty bad. It was a try for all money but he was considering going himself until it was too late. I think he was also guilty of pushing a few passes when we gave the pill away, as were others.
Foley and Lealiifano need to cut him out every now and then to bring TK into the game.


I think he spent his formative years steam rolling units to score billions of tries, he then finds a standard where they can tackle him and, like many Aus units, their technical skills are being found wanting
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
What's the definition of an offload? Plenty of our forwards did plenty of passing. Do you need to have contact first or something?
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
What's the definition of an offload? Plenty of our forwards did plenty of passing. Do you need to have contact first or something?
Yeah, isn't that the key distinction? An offload is a pass made whilst being tackled.

I actually thought the short forward passing was good. Its widely recognized you cant do shit as a one off forward runner anymore, unless steaming forward. Change the point of contact by shifting it inside or outside, quickly.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
The Saffas weren't much better in Super Rugby than the Australian teams (they were 0 - 5 against the Brumbies)...

But the Aussie pack features some of the best performers in Super Rugby this year - granted, a couple of those props weren't there on the weekend, but the players that were looked confused as to what their roles were in general play.

Slim - essentially I agree.

Moreover: IMO if we look very closely at Cheika's manifest (by results) failings as an HC, the most compelling failure in areas of specialist coaching has been in two dimensions: (a) Cheika's continuing refusal to appoint a true specialist forwards coach (by which I do not mean scrum coach) and (b), related, his insistence that only he can and should perform that role. He performs this chosen role self-dedication very badly, he clearly thinks he knows how to do it, but does not.

The result has been that in the entire 2015-2019 period there has been zero improvement is the general calibre and _effectiveness_ (as distinct from stats) of, particularly, our forwards work in open plan and the loose, in consistent gain line penetration across 80 minutes, in multiple productive carries beyond 1 metre, in breakdown productivity and time and space winning opposition ball-slowing, forwards offloading and linking skills in fast play, and so on.

We are simply not of sufficient class in these Test-turning attributes and routinely obsess over back line constitution and selection (or simply rely on our yearning for Pocock - yeah right, at 8 FFS) when our far deeper and more expensive problems lie in the low productivity and core skills of our forwards, especially and critically, in broken play.

Given that it is blindingly obvious that (c) L Fisher is by repute and results considered one of the best forwards coaches in the world, certainly in this hemisphere and (d) the calibre of his contribution can be clearly seen in the skills and success of the 2019 Brumbies forwards _as a group_, it beggars belief that in a RWC year he was not asked to join the Wallabies coaching set-up as forwards coach. Anyone who cannot see the need for this role within the current Wallaby environment is blind to the needs of the modern international game and/or blind to Cheika's coaching delinquencies.

(And don't get me started re how, in a RWC year, RA and Cheika think it's OK to (e) only appoint a Wallaby attack coach in May 2019 and (f) make that appointment as someone who's not succeeded at all in his most recent Super role as attack coach and whom is skin-deep in Test level attack coaching. I mean, this is not serious, this is not management, it's laughable.)
 

Up the Guts

Steve Williams (59)
I think he spent his formative years steam rolling units to score billions of tries, he then finds a standard where they can tackle him and, like many Aus units, their technical skills are being found wanting
Not just Kerevi. LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) still runs up right as if he is still 140kgs and playing against midgets. Quade and Kurtley were so good in attack as juniors no one cared about their defence and bothered to teach them to tackle. I’m sure there are others.

But it was good to see that Kerevi has improved his distribution skills. There’s still time for LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) to drop his body height. We missed the boat with Cooper and Beale.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Not just Kerevi. LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) still runs up right as if he is still 140kgs and playing against midgets. Quade and Kurtley were so good in attack as juniors no one cared about their defence and bothered to teach them to tackle. I’m sure there are others.

But it was good to see that Kerevi has improved his distribution skills. There’s still time for LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto) to drop his body height. We missed the boat with Cooper and Beale.
Think we have to suck it up with Beale because he's the only player in the country who can attack, besides Kerevi.
 

Joe Blow

Peter Sullivan (51)
It can't be a playmaker at 12 Kerevi has that locked down, so no JOC (James O'Connor), so it is either relying on Genia from 9 or Beale from 15 as the second playmaker
Not necessarily. He needs to show that he can bring in his outside players, put them away if you will. I do not believe he has it locked down. We have other options in Beale, To'omua, JOC (James O'Connor) etc.
Look at the Reds this year. Kerevis numbers are outstanding but The Reds numbers are anything but. We do not want the same for the Wallabies. He needs to adjust.

Edit - As said, our 10s will need to cut him out at times to get the ball wide.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
Edit - As said, our 10s will need to cut him out at times to get the ball wide.
Just trying to remember any cut out passes at all by Foley this season.
Plenty of deep passes during second man plays, short balls to forwards, and normal passes to outside backs - but I don't remember cut out passes from him.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
It's just another example of our coaching/tactical issues.....

I staunchly maintain we have the players to be more successful, but their talents are being wasted at this level.

Yes. And, it's harder at Test level. It just is. Defences will be better, opportunities will be fewer. Despite that, the Wallabies made several more opportunities to score / be in good scoring positions. So Plan A had some upside.
I think the differences are small - if they improve their accuracy in certain situations by 10-15% it would make a difference. Maybe not enough though.
But yes, the current tactics they are trying in attack need better contingencies for when it isn't working. The Plan B is a glaring deficiency - how do you adjust when the defensive pattern is stifling that well? Lack of adaptation has been a hallmark in recent years. Dare I say it, not playing what's in front of them?
Now where did we hear that old mantra? ;)
 

upthereds#!

Ken Catchpole (46)
It can't be a playmaker at 12 Kerevi has that locked down, so no JOC (James O'Connor), so it is either relying on Genia from 9 or Beale from 15 as the second playmaker


Woulnd't be 100% sure about Kerevi locking down 12. Maybe 80%. If Beale starts at 15 and successfully spreads the attack, then yes. However, if it is another week of Kerevi getting huge numbers, and all those outside him getting nothing, then they may move him to 13 to get another distributor there. Kerevi did get pushed out to 13 when To'omua and Beale were on.

Alot will come down to whether the other teams can replicate the boks tactics as effectively.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Our backline adjusted well and we started making serious inroads when we had the ball. We squandered easy opportunities and can't afford to do that.

Kuridrani needs the ball in his hands more but partly that has to come from Kerevi passing to him once he makes the initial break.
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
We already have distributers at 9 and 10. Give it a chance to work.


Well I think Genia is more suited to that role than White, especially if we actually want to get that go forward off short passes, before trying to go wide - like most sensible sides
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Woulnd't be 100% sure about Kerevi locking down 12. Maybe 80%. If Beale starts at 15 and successfully spreads the attack, then yes. However, if it is another week of Kerevi getting huge numbers, and all those outside him getting nothing, then they may move him to 13 to get another distributor there. Kerevi did get pushed out to 13 when To'omua and Beale were on.

Alot will come down to whether the other teams can replicate the boks tactics as effectively.


There is no way I can agree to moving our only effective ball in hand threat to a position where he will get less ball

He should be the first back picked and at 12
 
Top