Wallabies 2020

[Braveheart81]

Deans didn't have this option. Deans had a bunch of in-experienced duds foisted upon him, and he didn't have say in the matter. He didn't get to hand-pick his assistants, unlike Rennie.

How much of this is Deans' fault versus something he had to accept?

It has often been said that a major reason Deans missed out on the All Blacks head coach role to Graham Henry is that he didn't arrive with a concerted plan as to who he wanted as his assistants and his overall plan for the role compared to Henry.

Did the same thing happen in Australia?

Rennie clearly approached the Wallabies job with a set of assistants he wanted to hire and aside from a couple of options as his forwards coach not wanting the role, he did manage to assemble his desired team.

Deans came into the Wallabies job as a heralded provincial coach with a vast amount of success. He was absolutely in a position to make demands about who he wanted around him. If those demands were all refused then perhaps he shouldn't have taken the role?

 

[Braveheart81]

As just an average rugby tragic, I cannot believe that players need to have this emphasised to them in 2020.
We've been professional since 1995 and part of professionalism is the mantra of continual improvement.
Going hard or going home is also a basic building block of success and should have been around since 1995.
Earning big dollars would mean having to go hard all the time.
That's all before we explore the motivation to play for your country where going hard comes as naturally as day follows night.
If there are any players who haven't been working hard they should have been rooted out years ago.

We're talking about tiny differences between highly professional athletes. Everyone works hard and everyone puts their body on the line at training and in games.

It's trying to get everyone to put in that little bit more and be fitter than their opposition and have a greater desire to do the things necessary to win.

Within reason, you can always do more and work harder so it's trying to extract that last little bit of effort out of players that may be pretty distant from the moment where it plays out on the field. Having the ability to make that last ditch tackle or effort in the final minutes of a test in November isn't going to come from training hard in the week before, it's going to stem from how hard you worked in January running up hills in 40 degree heat etc.

 

[Braveheart81]

And Naisarani has just been released from the Wallabies squad again. Can't see much future for him under Rennie.

I reckon it's hard to say at this point.

Getting brought into the squad halfway through was never likely to result in selection with most players ahead of him healthy. A number of players have come in and none have got a game.

Lots of players have now been released from the squad because we've got one game left and too many players at training is a hindrance more than a benefit. If you're not in line to be in the 23 plus a few extras, there's little point having you there.

 

[Derpus]

As did Robbie Deans, scaringly similar in-fact (ie workhorse McCabe over flashy centres). Seems as if Rennie & Deans' coaching philosophies are more closely aligned than G&G's would like to admit. Concerning results their 1st years have been quite similar too: One Bledisloe upset against NZ at home, followed by an All Black blow-out at Eden Park, followed by a record defeat (Johannesburg 2008, Sydney 2020), at the end of the 2008 season Dean's win percentage sat at 65%, Rennie's (however) at the end of 2020 (assuming the Wallabies beat Argentina next week) will sit at merely 50%.

I don't see the point in comparing with Deans personally.

Deans did pretty well with a full generation of highly talented players. They were experienced and he wasnt consistently losing his best and most experienced talent to Europe or Japan. He pushed them to 2nd in the world and the only reason he never managed first was that his tenure coincided with the GOAT NZ side.

Rennie's tenure is entirely different. He has a raw team gutted of nearly all its experience. He's basically been stuck in the Thorn role, but for the Wallabies, in that he has to find a way to put together a team from highly rated and potentially great talent with next to no experience. His tenure also coincides with something of a nadir for rugby in Australia and has very little in the way of resources to work with.

They are not comparable situations, in any way. I don't think any comparison will result in meaningful conclusions.

 

[Braveheart81]

I don't see the point in comparing with Deans personally.

Deans did pretty well with a full generation of highly talented players. They were experienced and he wasnt consistently losing his best and most experienced talent to Europe or Japan. He pushed them to 2nd in the world and the only reason he never managed first was that his tenure coincided with the GOAT NZ side.

Rennie's tenure is entirely different. He has a raw team gutted of nearly all its experience. He's basically been stuck in the Thorn role, but for the Wallabies, in that he has to find a way to put together a team from highly rated and potentially great talent with next to no experience. His tenure also coincides with something of a nadir for rugby in Australia and has very little in the way of resources to work with.

They are not comparable situations, in any way. I don't think any comparison will result in meaningful conclusions.

I think you're reinventing history a little here.

Deans started in 2008 after we'd been bundled out in the quarter finals of the 2007 RWC.

Latham, Larkham and Gregan all played their last test at that RWC.

Most of the guys you are referring to as the generation of highly talented players debuted under Deans so potentially the same could be said for Rennie (although largely, we need to wait and see).

It is definitely true that he was losing less talent to Europe though.

 

[rodha]

I think you're reinventing history a little here.

Deans started in 2008 after we'd been bundled out in the quarter finals of the 2007 RWC.

Latham, Larkham and Gregan all played their last test at that RWC.

Most of the guys you are referring to as the generation of highly talented players debuted under Deans so potentially the same could be said for Rennie (although largely, we need to wait and see).

It is definitely true that he was losing less talent to Europe though.

Derpus has gone suspiciously silent after this one. I recall the 2008-2011 cycle was very much a re-building phase, featuring some of the youngest Wallabies teams to take the field. Cheika had the advantage of inheriting the Dean's blooded players at their peak/absolute maturity come 2015: Hooper, Beale, Folau, Sio, Genia, Pocock, Douglas, Simmons, Kepu, Mumm, Phipps, Slipper, etc..

 

[Derpus]

Derpus has gone suspiciously silent after this one. I recall the 2008-2011 cycle was very much a re-building phase, featuring some the youngest Wallabies teams ever to take the field. Cheika had the advantage of the Dean's blooded players at their maturity come 2015, Hooper, Folau, Genia, Pocock, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Kepu, Slipper etc..

u fukn wot fluffybunny?

Bullshit. We had plenty of talent hanging around and even better players coming through. You really think this lot is comparable to Folau, Genia, Pocock et al? nar. Shit we could afford to drop Giteau. Plus we had more than two professional first grade locks.

Now we have a guy who has never played 12 playing 12 for the Wallabies.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) debuted in 2005 btw.

Deans had a way betterer squad and i'm not reinventing shit. I agree with a prior point of BH's, though, about Deans opposition being weaker, particularly the home nations.

 

[Joe Blow]

Swinton does plenty of work and his 'edge' is in defence.

Isi is a pretty old fashion ball carrying 8. I actually don't think we need him - we seem to have plenty of grunt in the forwards.

He is one dimensional and easily contained. You can stop him when you know he is coming. Most of the time you know. No lineout presence. Plus Wilson is fast putting his stamp on 8. It would make more sense to keep Samu as a back up.

 

[Joe Blow]

Can you imagine having to give 100% all day every day at your job - and if you ever fail to live up that expectation you get punted pretty much immediately.

What a shite job.

Not punted, more like put in a smaller office in the back. There is always opportunity for advancement but when you hit the jackpot you need to perform or at least give the boss a reason to keep you around.

 

[Micheal]

Derpus has gone suspiciously silent after this one. I recall the 2008-2011 cycle was very much a re-building phase, featuring some of the youngest Wallabies teams ever to take the field. Cheika had the advantage of inheriting the Dean's blooded players at their peak/absolute maturity come 2015: Hooper, Beale, Folau, Sio, Genia, Pocock, Douglas, Simmons, Kepu, Mumm, Phipps, Slipper, etc..

Wait huh?

In the game Deans beat the All Blacks in his first year (34-19) the Wallabies lineup was:

1-8: Benn Robinson, Stephen Moore, Al Baxter, James Horwill, Nathan Sharpe, Rocky Elsom, Wycliff Palu
9-15: Burgess, Giteau, Tuqiri, Barnes, Cross, Hynes, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

16-22: TPN, Dunning, Vickerman, Waugh, Cordingly, Tahu, Mitchell

By no means could that team be considered "one of the youngest Wallaby teams to take the field". Of that team, almost all were in their prime, and in their prime I'd take the following for our squad:

Moore, Horwill, Sharpe, Elsom, Palu, Giteau, Tuqiri, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), TPN, Vickerman, Waugh, Mitchell​

In fact, I think the following would walk into the starting XV currently:

Moore / TPN, Horwill, Sharpe, Vickerman, Elsom, Smith, Palu, Giteau, Tuqiri, Mitchell​

​

Right now, we have a 7 test hooker (BPA), a 7 test 2nd rower (Philip), a 4 test No 8 (Wilson), a 10 who doesn't even have a normal position, two centres with 10 tests between them (Petaia and Paisami), a winger with 1 test (Wright) and a full-back with 9 tests (Banks).

On the bench, 6 of our 7 players have 26 caps between them (Bell, Faianga, Valentini, Wright, Gordon, Noah) and Fainga has 14 of those.

You are uncategorically, universally, objectively incorrect.

 

[Derpus]

Wait huh?

In the game Deans beat the All Blacks in his first year (34-19) the Wallabies lineup was:

1-8: Benn Robinson, Stephen Moore, Al Baxter, James Horwill, Nathan Sharpe, Rocky Elsom, Wycliff Palu
9-15: Burgess, Giteau, Tuqiri, Barnes, Cross, Hynes, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

16-22: TPN, Dunning, Vickerman, Waugh, Cordingly, Tahu, Mitchell

Of that team, almost all were in their prime, and in their prime I'd take the following for our squad:

Moore, Horwill, Sharpe, Elsom, Palu, Giteau, Tuqiri, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), TPN, Vickerman, Waugh, Mitchell

These guys were literally all in the prime of their career. In fact, I think the following would walk into the starting XV currently:

Moore / TPN, Horwill, Sharpe, Vickerman, Elsom, Palu, Giteau, Tuqiri, Mitchell

For doing the research i couldnt be bothered to do.

How good would it be to have Horwill, Sharpe and Vickerman right now.

 

[Derpus]

Cheika fluked his way to the 2015 final riding on Dingo & Link's coat-tails, then failed bigly to take the team forward.

Maybe baby - but what does Cheika have to do with anything in this convo?

If that was an attempt at a troll it was weak. Up your game.

 

[rodha]

Deans had a way betterer squad and i'm not reinventing shit.

Cheika fluked his way to the 2015 final riding on Dingo & Link's coat-tails, then failed bigly to take the team forward.

 

[Micheal]

For doing the research i couldnt be bothered to do.

How good would it be to have Horwill, Sharpe and Vickerman right now.

Added more detail since you quoted me. The guys deluded.

 

[Derpus]

Cheika fluked his way to the 2015 final riding on Dingo & Link's coat-tails, then failed bigly to take the team forward.

 

[rodha]

Added more detail since you quoted me. The guys deluded.

I was just responding to the gentleman using trump-isms to get a point across.

Anyway we're getting off-topic, the cyclops is bound to turn up any minute now.

"Concealed within his fortress, the lord of mordor cyclopath sees all. His gaze pierces cloud, shadow, earth, and flesh. You know of what I speak, Gandalf: a single Eye, lidless, wreathed in flame."

 

[Derpus]

 

[cyclopath]

Turn up? I'm not a fucking bus.
Think of me like Bricktop, sans pigs.

 

[TSR]

Turns up like the 327 to Waltham Cross station - generally late, bad tempered and with a musty smell.

 

[cyclopath]

Turns up like the 327 to Waltham Cross station - generally late, bad tempered and with a musty smell.

It's not "musty", it's an old bottle of Drakkar Noir circa 1987.