Wallabies 2023

[Doritos Day]

Yeah imagine being a full time athlete and having all week to devote to recovery and not be able to play 5 weeks in a row. Blokes get on the tools for 50 hours a week and play each weekend

I'd suggest that the physicality/intensity between the test level and your local subbies comp is a fair bit different; only a guess though.

Coaches and players across the world say its a bad idea, and therefore no one but Australia does it. Then we have the audacity to complain about injuries and poor results. Very logical stuff.

 

[Highlander35]

Other codes seem to cope with high level competition for many weeks longer too

The World Cup is the onyl time WR (World Rugby) genuinely expects international teams to play more than 3 games in a row, and they've been constantly (in recent editions at least) extending out the squad sizes and length of time between games wherever possible.

In the 6 Nations and RC sides are never genuinely expected by WR (World Rugby) to play more than 3 weeks in a row. Both the 6 Nations and RC have two byes across their 5/6 games played. And both sets of tours only have formal windows open for 3 weeks.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that the increase on load for bodies to bear increases at a rate greater than strictly linear.

 

[Rebel man]

I'd suggest that the physicality/intensity between the test level and your local subbies comp is a fair bit different; only a guess though.

Coaches and players across the world say its a bad idea, and therefore no one but Australia does it. Then we have the audacity to complain about injuries and poor results. Very logical stuff.

Lol most of the injuries happened pre spring tour and while it maybe a higher intensity than club rugby they are also full time professionals. They aren’t going to work when they are banged up from a game.

 

[TSR]

Lol most of the injuries happened pre spring tour and while it maybe a higher intensity than club rugby they are also full time professionals. They aren’t going to work when they are banged up from a game.

Is this supposed to be a gee up?

You aren’t seriously comparing club footballers to internationals are you?

 

[Rebel man]

Is this supposed to be a gee up?

You aren’t seriously comparing club footballers to internationals are you?

To say you can’t play 5 games in 5 weeks is a joke. The NRL does it the AFL does it. It is just people making excuses. We were arrogant against Italy and thought we could trial players and got beat

 

[rodha]

That's make sense to me. I suffered that several times in my amateur career, so it's something that could happen. In that case, Eddie would recive all the payoff for Rennie hard work lol

Eddie is all-too familiar with previous coaches doing all the hard work for him... MacQueen, Lancaster, and now Rennie. He must've the art mastered to a tee by now.

 

[RugbyReg]

I'd suggest that the physicality/intensity between the test level and your local subbies comp is a fair bit different; only a guess though.

I’d suggest the fitness, strength, durability, expectation etc of elite professional athletes should be a fair bit different to local subbies players though. Only a guess though.

 

[rodha]

To say you can’t play 5 games in 5 weeks is a joke. The NRL does it the AFL does it. It is just people making excuses. We were arrogant against Italy and thought we could trial players and got beat

It really wasn't as terrible a result as you make it out to be. Australia played five exceptionally strong teams. Rennie did very well.

Robbie Dean's Wallabies were trailing the Azzuri until 75 minutes with a team loaded with genuinely world-class players (Stirling Mortlock, Ashley-Cooper, Digby Ioane, Matt Giteau, Stephen Moore, Phil Waugh, Mark Chisholm, Sekope Kepu, Polota-Nau, Wycliff Palu, etc..) he was only bailed out by a moment of individual brilliance from the unparalleled genius of Quade Cooper coming off the bench late in the game. In contrast, Dave merely lost to a far stronger Italy side by 1 point with a Wallabies 3rd-string side. They came within literally inches of winning it outright (if Neville had run in just a fraction closer towards the posts...) then Donaldson would've certainly converted it.

 

[stillmissit]

I've no idea how this descends to the personal. I do take the bad with the good and never called for Rennie's head. Just that he take responsibility. A "nearly" lost 5 years ago is an almost but not quite unacceptable result of historic note only. Rennies bad has been worse than most and it is completely normal for fans to judge by a w/l ratio.

Dru, we rarely get to see what goes on at the Wallabies in training, preparation and planning. In the absence of real information, it makes sense to make a decision based on a W/L ratio. Most probably what the ARU did anyway..

 

[Doritos Day]

I’d suggest the fitness, strength, durability, expectation etc of elite professional athletes should be a fair bit different to local subbies players though. Only a guess though.

I'd wager that World Rugby, every other union but R.A. as well as their players and coaches would have a better grasp on what's realistic than smartasses on a rugby forum

If five tests in a row was consistently doable it would happen, because it's the only part of the sport that makes money and $ trumps all.

 

[Doritos Day]

It really wasn't as terrible a result as you make it out to be. Australia played five exceptionally strong teams. Rennie did very well.

Australia are not very good regardless there is no universe where 2/5 can be described as 'very well'

 

[TSR]

To say you can’t play 5 games in 5 weeks is a joke. The NRL does it the AFL does it. It is just people making excuses. We were arrogant against Italy and thought we could trial players and got beat

It was an EOYT 12 months out from the World Cup. We were always going to trial players and that trial was always going to come largely against Italy. It was a risk, if didn’t turn out and Rennie paid the price. It had nothing to do with whether guys could back up or not.

In terms of players playing 5 tests straight - I don’t know whether that should happen or shouldn’t but my understanding is that S&C would argue against it. You are right that NRL/AFL play weekly but they do rotate guys out as fitness requires. State of Origin has rarely (ever?) been played in consecutive weeks and they play split rounds over that period specifically to manage the players welfare. So I don’t agree that your NRL example actually supports your argument here. If anything I think it supports managing workloads.

In any case the only point I queried here is whether you were genuinely comparing the work load of club rugby players with essentially very little riding on the outcome of the result (no offence to all club players out there) with international rugby where not only is the game and training requirements on a completely different level, but there is significantly more riding in the result and the game is scrutinised far more closely. Personally I don’t see any relevance in the comparison - but maybe that’s just me.

 

[stillmissit]

I’d suggest the fitness, strength, durability, expectation etc of elite professional athletes should be a fair bit different to local subbies players though. Only a guess though.

Reg, having done some Subbies coaching some time ago I can state that a few of them can be just precious as some of the Wallabies but that is where the comparison ends!

 

[Rebel man]

It was ab EOYT 12 months out from the World Cup. We were always going to trial players and that trial was always going to come largely against Italy. It was a risk, if didn’t turn out and Rennie paid the price. It had nothing to do with whether guys could back up or not.

In terms of players playing 5 tests straight - I don’t know whether that should happen or shouldn’t but my understanding is that S&C would argue against it. You are right that NRL/AFL play weekly but they do rotate guys out as fitness requires. State of Origin has rarely (ever?) been played in consecutive weeks and they play split rounds over that period specifically to manage the players welfare. So I don’t agree that your NRL example actually supports your argument here. If anything I think it supports managing workloads.

In any case the only point I queried here is whether you were genuinely comparing the work load of club rugby players with essentially very little riding on the outcome of the result (no offence to all club players out there) with international rugby where not only is the game and training requirements on a completely different level, but there is significantly more riding in the result and the game is scrutinised far more closely. Personally I don’t see any relevance in the comparison - but maybe that’s just me.

They hardly rotate players out the best players are rested once in a blue moon they miss if they are forced to and that’s it

 

[dru]

Dru, we rarely get to see what goes on at the Wallabies in training, preparation and planning. In the absence of real information, it makes sense to make a decision based on a W/L ratio. Most probably what the ARU did anyway..

I try to give the selectors room in my head when I see selections that don't make sense (to me). Clearly they see more and performance in training is important.

As you know, I wouldn't have cut Rennie, though if I were running the show he had nil chance of continuing post-RWC. RA took a different position and cut him when Eddie became available. I wouldn't have done it, but I have no problem with it.

 

[rodha]

Dru, we rarely get to see what goes on at the Wallabies in training, preparation and planning. In the absence of real information, it makes sense to make a decision based on a W/L ratio. Most probably what the ARU did anyway..

Remember when John O'Neill & ARU originally set Dean's expected winning percentage for his KPI's as 75%? They had to revisit that lofty projection quickly... Australian national sporting teams & setting unrealistic expectations - name a more consistent duo? Mate, it's simply ingrained in your DNA.

And although Dave didn't get the wins, that didn't really matter, because unlike other international coaches, he ultimately saw the bigger picture, he set the team up with a long-term development vision, he implemented meaningful changes that were intended to benefit the team in the years after he had departed - 2023 World Cup, 2025 Lion's tour, 2027 World Cup.

Jones is fortunate that he will soon yield the fruits of Rennie's masterful depth-building, individual game development of players & incredibly dogged fighting team mentality, the exceptional resilience of character that he installed within the environment.

Kiwi Dave molded these Wallabies into a world-class outfit but Australian favourite son Eddie will inevitably receive the plaudits!

 

[dru]

Remember when John O'Neill & ARU originally set Dean's expected winning percentage for his KPI's as 75%? They had to revisit that lofty projection quickly... Australian national sporting teams & setting unrealistic expectations - name a more consistent duo? Mate, it's simply ingrained in your DNA.

75%? What a straw man - what exactly was Rennie's w/l?

And although Dave didn't get the wins, ultimately that didn't matter

Yes, it did. It cost him his job, and dampened his reputation among other things.

because he actually saw may have seen the bigger picture,

fify

Eddie is fortunate that he will yield the fruits of Rennie's masterful depth-building, individual game development of players & incredibly dogged fighting team mentality, the exceptional resilience of character that he installed within the team environment.

As it turns out, there is no objective evidence of this possible. "Disastrous inability to campaign a team without horrific injury tolls" may be a more accurate way of describing the same thing. Like you, I also thought that Dave was building somewhere, but to call it masterful given last year, is dopey. With that many tight losses, saying they had a "dogged fighting team mentality" is also dopey.

Nor is there any particular evidence that the team character was any more resilient than previous. Let alone "exceptional". Unless resilient is to contuse smiling through consistent losses.

The way it turned out, Dave Rennie had, and still has, huge potential - but he wasn't ready for the Wallabies.

 

[TSR]

They hardly rotate players out the best players are rested once in a blue moon they miss if they are forced to and that’s it

Pretty much I agree - but they do manage work loads very closely and they do rest key players during Origin, in the lead up to finals and whenever there is a test within the season. They’d rest a player in a heartbeat if they thought it was going to jeopardise a more important game in the future.

The other difference here is that an NRL/AFL coach has roughly 26 weeks plus trials to test whether a player is up to comp standard. And they don’t have to worry about planning for a World Cup. They do - however - regularly plan for the future but they’re week to week selections and have far more opportunity to do that. For many, dropping the odd game is not critical - whether that’s because they are in a really good spot or whether they are not expected to play the GF. They can blood new guys 1-2 at a time. Teams like the Broncos, Melbourne & Penrith often drop a game or two around origin time precisely because they’ve rested a bunch of guys. But they’ve normally had the opportunity to blood most of the guys they will lean on in this time leading up to that period and their season doesn’t swing off 1-2 results because there is a much bigger spread between the best and worst team. If a team is choc full of origin players then dropping a game in the middle of the year is of little consequence. Fans accept it and no one marks the coach down. But they do mark the coach down if he doesn’t manage
player welfare and the club has a slump in the second half.

A test coach doesn’t get that luxury. Ideally they would drip feed players into the XV, and Rennie did to an extent, but he had to take some risks with his selections. His alternative was to go the whole tour and leave a group of players uncapped. In hindsight he is probably wishing he did that - but reading the comments leading up to the test I think most people wanted to see guys like Donaldson, Gleeson & Nawaqanitwase get a gig and guys like Campbell get another go.

And I still don’t get the relevance of the comparison with rugby club players who work during the week.

 

[Doritos Day]

Remember when John O'Neill & ARU originally set Dean's expected winning percentage for his KPI's as 75%? They had to revisit that lofty projection quickly... Australian national sporting teams & setting unrealistic expectations - name a more consistent duo? Mate, it's simply ingrained in your DNA.

What is this rubbish? Most Australian teams / athletes (think Olympics) massively outperform relative to international competition. And that's with plenty of good ones going to two football codes that are (or de facto) not played globally.

In fact the Wallabies being one of the only one's who haven't (for the majority of 2004-22) is why they're so lambasted by the media and general public.

 

[RugbyReg]

It really wasn't as terrible a result as you make it out to be. Australia played five exceptionally strong teams. Rennie did very well.

Robbie Dean's Wallabies were trailing the Azzuri until 75 minutes with a team loaded with genuinely world-class players (Stirling Mortlock, Ashley-Cooper, Digby Ioane, Matt Giteau, Stephen Moore, Phil Waugh, Mark Chisholm, Sekope Kepu, Polota-Nau, Wycliff Palu, etc..) he was only bailed out by a moment of individual brilliance from the unparalleled genius of Quade Cooper coming off the bench late in the game. In contrast, Dave merely lost to a far stronger Italy side by 1 point with a Wallabies 3rd-string side. They came within literally inches of winning it outright (if Neville had run in just a fraction closer towards the posts...) then Donaldson would've certainly converted it.

Palu and Giteau were on the bench. It was Kepu’s first test as well. It was Digby’s 2nd test. Timana Tahu was 12. There were only about 20 less caps in this years starting team than that ones.