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Wallabies v England, Sat 11th June, 8.00pm, Suncorp Brisbane

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Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I'm not a prop, but in every replay of a collapse on Sio's side I saw he had his feet a long way back and didn't attempt to chase them forward. Seemed to me that Cole had him on the run through fair means and foul.

Cole was doing two things to put Sio out of position:

1) Turning in and down, denying Sio a chance to lever under his sternum and make Cole distinctly uncomfortable.

2) Fading after the hit, even pulling back slightly - this is the cause of Sio overextending.

Sio was looking to put power through Cole, but had no target to set his frame against as a result of these two things. If he tries to follow Cole in, he looks like he's boring in. Staying straight and driving is also difficult because he's looking for shoulder/neck contact to gain an advantage.

CkqjqxCVAAIxUkD.jpg


The really poor thing from the officials at this point is that its OUR feed, and Cole should clearly be penalised for his angle here. But all they see is Sio hitting the deck.

In a later scrum, Cole stays square and Sio chases up his feet a little harder, meaning is arse is over his heels. At that point the whole Pommy scrum does a little two-step, drives at an angle, like this from the RWC2015 game which @Gagger analysed - these shots are from his article:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum-analysis-how-the-wallabies-crushed-england/

Screen-Shot-2015-10-05-at-4.59.jpeg


Once they drive in the direction of the arrows, with Sio in retreat (arse over heels) they step back around to the right and drive through him. Again, from RWC 2015 - practically a copy of the tactic:

Screen-Shot-2015-10-05-at-5.00.jpeg


Like that game, we don't adapt, and explode, partly because Sio can't shift his feet quick enough to recover. That was when we got penalised and the card came out I believe (?)

----------------------------------------

So what is the answer?

Well, I'll bet Ledesma has a few after looking at images and video like the one above. And probably better than this humble analyst.

One thing I'd start with is Sio's setup - all our young props are taught to set up their feet in parallel, with a big chest. When Cole is putting these sorts of silly buggers are going on, its time to turn to Vietnamese logic: Phuc Dat.

Sio should advance his outside (left) foot slightly, in order to give himself a better chance to recover his balance instead of overextending. It means he can't be as dominant post-hit, but it also means he's unlikely to overextend and fall on his face.

If Cole turns in and pulls back, like the above, Sio can chase with his inside foot and start reaming the prick. If Cole actually wants to take him head on, then use that outside foot to drive up and then down and unsettle Cole, before resetting and driving through.

Benn Robinson was a good exponent of changing vertical angles to mess up an opposing THP. It takes a shitload of practice to do it without falling on your face.

Sio also needs to start stretching his pecs a little more, and go for a right-angle bind up and over Cole's back, to (or past) the shoulder blade. NOT a long bind down his jersey.

This is fucking tricky - it is totally ninja - but you need to get your forearm in a position where your elbow is under the THP's, and then lock his shoulder upwards. It means Cole can't twist in and down, and you have his chest open for your assault.

The hard part about this is your arm has no leverage because his pecs will beat your trapezius every time, so you need to shoot that bind up and around onto his back as quickly as possible before he locks down.

It also hurts like hell, and if he tries to squeeze down, you need to start crushing his sternum with severe prejudice and use your larger back muscles to defeat his smaller chest muscles.

Long term, this WILL result in severe damage to your muscular system, but if you gave a shit about that, you wouldn't be a prop. You blouse.
----------------------------------------

Next is the whole scrum setup: these days you're taught that the THP's inside shoulder leads the hooker slightly, and the hooker's inside shoulder leads the LHP slightly.

In the first couple of scrums I'd reverse that and give Sio primacy on the hit. It will not only put him in a better position to address Cole's shenanigans, but disrupt the contact of Vunipola on the other side.


Beyond that, the tight 5 of the scrum needs to think as a single being. If Cole tries his silly buggers, everyone needs to push left, allowing Kepu/Holmes to attack Hartley, and Moore to attack Cole. Sio is left at a bit of a loose end but needs to stay straight and use his power to drag the scrum left-of-centre. The aim here is:

1) Nullify Cole's move in and down. If he's caught here when the scrum starts to shift, he's now trying to take the entire tight side of our scrum head-on, with no lock behind him, and only a flanker giving peripheral support.

2) Vunipola now looks like he's boring in, and depending how quickly his locks react, they'll be pushing at a tangent, creating more chaos.

3) This results in exactly the same thing that England did to us after Cole foxed the first couple of scrums - he started to push straight, and after a quick shuffle the entire English pack sheared us off.

Again, from the @Gagger article

Screen-Shot-2015-10-06-at-10.56.jpeg


Screen-Shot-2015-10-06-at-10.59.jpeg


Note how Hooper is keeping his arse out, and is barely bound? That is because he's putting all his weight onto the loosehead in order to keep him forced up against the weight of the scrum.

Similar to what Sio is going to feel, as a LHP at that point you're not really pushing 100% - you're kind of pulling your hooker left of centre, and can't really hit the THP straight on. The left side flanker therefore has to hold you in.

If Cole wants to take us head-on, that's fine: we scrum straight, use Holmes or Kepu with Horwill behind them to drive through the bind of Hartley and Vunipola, and more than likely Vunipola will collapse in or down. If he doesn't, everyone sticks their left foot out once we're going forward, and changes direction slightly.


The last point I'd make is mainly about scrums on our ball:

FUCK hooking for the ball on our first 2-3 feeds. If you go back to the original image at the top, Moore's arse has disappeared (note the yellow stripe on the shorts is not visible) because he's going for a hook. I'd rather he set up like a third prop, and we muller the bastards on the feed.

The secret is timing. Occasionally you'll just go off a set number of seconds after the ball is feed, but when its getting a bit intelligent in the scrum, you need to vary that timing slightly to keep the opposition off-guard. Particularly if your hooker is going Third Prop.


You make a call as you're setting the scrum just like a lineout, which tells you if there is going to be a delay on the push or not. Phipps rolls the ball into channel 1, and then as per the call, everyone goes together: push-2-3-4 and then either a second shove or a hook if you haven't stepped over the ball.

Again, the effects of this are many fold:

1) If things go well, it shows the ref who rules the roost
2) It gives you clean ball without complications
3) It makes the opposition very bloody wary of any subsequent calls, and they start to brace for impact instead of pushing themselves, if you get it right.

After a couple of scrums like this, you should be able to get clean ball every time. If they come back at you, then just rinse and repeat.


The point is: our scrum hasn't suddenly gone to shit. In fact, if you look at the tactics England employed, they are nowhere near as powerful as they'd like everyone to believe.

Its up to our blokes to prove this beyond all doubt.
 

The torpedo

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Cole was doing two things to put Sio out of position:

1) Turning in and down, denying Sio a chance to lever under his sternum and make Cole distinctly uncomfortable.

2) Fading after the hit, even pulling back slightly - this is the cause of Sio overextending.

Sio was looking to put power through Cole, but had no target to set his frame against as a result of these two things. If he tries to follow Cole in, he looks like he's boring in. Staying straight and driving is also difficult because he's looking for shoulder/neck contact to gain an advantage.

CkqjqxCVAAIxUkD.jpg


The really poor thing from the officials at this point is that its OUR feed, and Cole should clearly be penalised for his angle here. But all they see is Sio hitting the deck.

In a later scrum, Cole stays square and Sio chases up his feet a little harder, meaning is arse is over his heels. At that point the whole Pommy scrum does a little two-step, drives at an angle, like this from the RWC2015 game which @Gagger analysed - these shots are from his article:

http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum-analysis-how-the-wallabies-crushed-england/

Screen-Shot-2015-10-05-at-4.59.jpeg


Once they drive in the direction of the arrows, with Sio in retreat (arse over heels) they step back around to the right and drive through him. Again, from RWC 2015 - practically a copy of the tactic:

Screen-Shot-2015-10-05-at-5.00.jpeg


Like that game, we don't adapt, and explode, partly because Sio can't shift his feet quick enough to recover. That was when we got penalised and the card came out I believe (?)

----------------------------------------

So what is the answer?

Well, I'll bet Ledesma has a few after looking at images and video like the one above. And probably better than this humble analyst.

One thing I'd start with is Sio's setup - all our young props are taught to set up their feet in parallel, with a big chest. When Cole is putting these sorts of silly buggers are going on, its time to turn to Vietnamese logic: Phuc Dat.

Sio should advance his outside (left) foot slightly, in order to give himself a better chance to recover his balance instead of overextending. It means he can't be as dominant post-hit, but it also means he's unlikely to overextend and fall on his face.

If Cole turns in and pulls back, like the above, Sio can chase with his inside foot and start reaming the prick. If Cole actually wants to take him head on, then use that outside foot to drive up and then down and unsettle Cole, before resetting and driving through.

Benn Robinson was a good exponent of changing vertical angles to mess up an opposing THP. It takes a shitload of practice to do it without falling on your face.

Sio also needs to start stretching his pecs a little more, and go for a right-angle bind up and over Cole's back, to (or past) the shoulder blade. NOT a long bind down his jersey.

This is fucking tricky - it is totally ninja - but you need to get your forearm in a position where your elbow is under the THP's, and then lock his shoulder upwards. It means Cole can't twist in and down, and you have his chest open for your assault.

The hard part about this is your arm has no leverage because his pecs will beat your trapezius every time, so you need to shoot that bind up and around onto his back as quickly as possible before he locks down.

It also hurts like hell, and if he tries to squeeze down, you need to start crushing his sternum with severe prejudice and use your larger back muscles to defeat his smaller chest muscles.

Long term, this WILL result in severe damage to your muscular system, but if you gave a shit about that, you wouldn't be a prop. You blouse.
----------------------------------------

Next is the whole scrum setup: these days you're taught that the THP's inside shoulder leads the hooker slightly, and the hooker's inside shoulder leads the LHP slightly.

In the first couple of scrums I'd reverse that and give Sio primacy on the hit. It will not only put him in a better position to address Cole's shenanigans, but disrupt the contact of Vunipola on the other side.


Beyond that, the tight 5 of the scrum needs to think as a single being. If Cole tries his silly buggers, everyone needs to push left, allowing Kepu/Holmes to attack Hartley, and Moore to attack Cole. Sio is left at a bit of a loose end but needs to stay straight and use his power to drag the scrum left-of-centre. The aim here is:

1) Nullify Cole's move in and down. If he's caught here when the scrum starts to shift, he's now trying to take the entire tight side of our scrum head-on, with no lock behind him, and only a flanker giving peripheral support.

2) Vunipola now looks like he's boring in, and depending how quickly his locks react, they'll be pushing at a tangent, creating more chaos.

3) This results in exactly the same thing that England did to us after Cole foxed the first couple of scrums - he started to push straight, and after a quick shuffle the entire English pack sheared us off.

Again, from the @Gagger article

Screen-Shot-2015-10-06-at-10.56.jpeg


Screen-Shot-2015-10-06-at-10.59.jpeg


Note how Hooper is keeping his arse out, and is barely bound? That is because he's putting all his weight onto the loosehead in order to keep him forced up against the weight of the scrum.

Similar to what Sio is going to feel, as a LHP at that point you're not really pushing 100% - you're kind of pulling your hooker left of centre, and can't really hit the THP straight on. The left side flanker therefore has to hold you in.

If Cole wants to take us head-on, that's fine: we scrum straight, use Holmes or Kepu with Horwill behind them to drive through the bind of Hartley and Vunipola, and more than likely Vunipola will collapse in or down. If he doesn't, everyone sticks their left foot out once we're going forward, and changes direction slightly.


The last point I'd make is mainly about scrums on our ball:

FUCK hooking for the ball on our first 2-3 feeds. If you go back to the original image at the top, Moore's arse has disappeared (note the yellow stripe on the shorts is not visible) because he's going for a hook. I'd rather he set up like a third prop, and we muller the bastards on the feed.

The secret is timing. Occasionally you'll just go off a set number of seconds after the ball is feed, but when its getting a bit intelligent in the scrum, you need to vary that timing slightly to keep the opposition off-guard. Particularly if your hooker is going Third Prop.

You make a call as you're setting the scrum just like a lineout, which tells you if there is going to be a delay on the push or not. Phipps rolls the ball into channel 1, and then as per the call, everyone goes together: push-2-3-4 and then either a second shove or a hook if you haven't stepped over the ball.

Again, the effects of this are many fold:

1) If things go well, it shows the ref who rules the roost
2) It gives you clean ball without complications
3) It makes the opposition very bloody wary of any subsequent calls, and they start to brace for impact instead of pushing themselves, if you get it right.

After a couple of scrums like this, you should be able to get clean ball every time. If they come back at you, then just rinse and repeat.


The point is: our scrum hasn't suddenly gone to shit. In fact, if you look at the tactics England employed, they are nowhere near as powerful as they'd like everyone to believe.

Its up to our blokes to prove this beyond all doubt.

There was an article somewhere that quoted Dan Cole "we had to rethink our scrum" (or something like that). Looks like he meant "we have to find new ways of hiding our cheating" ;)

EDIT: here's the article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...re-forced-to-rethink-and-rebuild-their-scrum/
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Not cheating if you don't get caught :)

They got pinged a couple of times for being over-eager, then went to Plan B. Once that got the traction they wanted, they went to Plan C - the end game. The first part of this was probably to get penalties, the card that early was just a bonus.

Its about knowing the ref, more than anything.

Poite doesn't care what you do, as long as you're on your feet. If you're going forward, then you'll get the rub of the green.
 

The torpedo

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Not cheating if you don't get caught :)

And then a twitter hashtag starts trending, blog pieces are written, it becomes mainstream and then..............................6 penalties against the enemy's scrum ;)


so spread the hastag: #scrumstraightdan
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Actually, this time we want to Eddie Jones the fuck out of that.

Start praising Cole for his smarts at scrum time, and take them by surprise. No need to look like whingers straight after a loss.


Instead, look at Cole like this:

80618-you-are-very-good-you-gif-Robe-4mBR.gif



Reverse PSYCHE!

Yeah, I'm like a modern day Sun Tzu. Attack where they're not expecting it.
 

The torpedo

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Actually, this time we want to Eddie Jones the fuck out of that.

Start praising Cole for his smarts at scrum time, and take them by surprise. No need to look like whingers straight after a loss.


Instead, look at Cole like this:

80618-you-are-very-good-you-gif-Robe-4mBR.gif



Reverse PSYCHE!

Yeah, I'm like a modern day Sun Tzu. Attack where they're not expecting it.

Right you are good sir.

So: Dan Cole is the GOAT scrummager. He could force a penalty try against the opposition on his own 5 metres out from his own goal line. England are the greatest ever. No one will ever beat them. How did the wallabies only lose by 11 points on the weekend when they're worse than every rugby team ever? England are the GOAT at everything. They will never lose another game of rugby ever again, while the wallabies never will win or draw another game again.

England by 674849957484948659430921938487483982983743383970832072571298579217 points on the weekend.

That's 674849957484948659430921938487483982983743383970832072571298579217-0 in favour of England :p

TL;DR: Dan Cole & England are the best, the wallabies are the worst & England will win by many points on the weekend

In all seriousness though, I genuinely think England will win next weekend and we will be shamed throughout the rugby world :(
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Well, maybe not in so many words :)

Praise where its due for smart scrummaging. I think to go back to whinging would only get everyone else offside, which is why I've been loathe to approach it from that angle (as opposed to the angles those Pommy bastards are using ;) )

We just need to be smarter.
 

tragic

John Solomon (38)
Interesting to hear cheikas comments that he felt having lilo on and slipping in to 12 meant they got to play wider with the two k's and create more opportunity on the edges (which was where most of our points came)
Can't say I noticed that myself and lilo's been uniformly panned on this forum.
Maybe we're not as smart as we think we are.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
Interesting to hear cheikas comments that he felt having lilo on and slipping in to 12 meant they got to play wider with the two k's and create more opportunity on the edges (which was where most of our points came)
Can't say I noticed that myself and lilo's been uniformly panned on this forum.
Maybe we're not as smart as we think we are.

Uniformly panned?

Mate, the royal wee is for the royal urinal, not here.
 

Groucho

Greg Davis (50)
In all seriousness though, I genuinely think England will win next weekend and we will be shamed throughout the rugby world :(

Why would we be shamed throughout the rugby world? Seems like you disrespect both teams, particularly England, who I think deserve credit for their achievements since the world cup.
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
Interesting to hear cheikas comments that he felt having lilo on and slipping in to 12 meant they got to play wider with the two k's and create more opportunity on the edges (which was where most of our points came)
Can't say I noticed that myself and lilo's been uniformly panned on this forum.
Maybe we're not as smart as we think we are.
Happy to be corrected.
Talk me through Lilo's contribution by adding width with each of our tries.
 

ExiledinBorders

Frank Row (1)
Cole was doing two things to put Sio out of position:

1) Turning in and down, denying Sio a chance to lever under his sternum and make Cole distinctly uncomfortable.

2) Fading after the hit, even pulling back slightly - this is the cause of Sio overextending.
I won't comment on point 1 other than to say of course he was and so was the Aussie tight head. That is what props do.

Regarding point 2, you are right that Cole faded after the engagement. Sio's problem was not that this caused him to be overextended it was that he was already overextended prior to the engagement so he then collapsed. If you set yourself in a position that the opposing Prop can put you on the floor with a simple trick you are asking for trouble.

The question is why is Sio setting himself with his legs extended. The answer is obvious. It is the strongest position but it is risky as he has discovered. Perhaps he is not confident that he can match Cole without doing this?
 
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JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
Agreed. I'll need to watch the replay to get a better idea, but from what I recall Cole would've needed a spine like an accordion to fade enough to pull Sio into the kind of overextension he was in.
 

Ulrich

Nev Cottrell (35)
Agreed. I'll need to watch the replay to get a better idea, but from what I recall Cole would've had to have a spine like an accordion to fade enough to pull Sio into the kind of overextension he was in.
Yeah, can't imagine you have much leverage for pulling backwards as a front ranker in a scrum. It's eye-popping pressure especially for the tight-five and there's probably a lot of "dark art" going on there in those seconds and split seconds that most laymen are not aware of.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
I found England really looked to target Phipps and Foley, the times we looked good was when we had go forward, crossing the add line in tight, and winning the collision - when this was being done we were earning the right wide.

I'd like to soak of more time with the ball and earning the right.

We had so few scrums in that game, there was not one whist Sio was in the bin - yes I want a dominant set piece, and not one that is crumbling. Are we wanting to dominate every single scrum and loose impact in the loose, with ball carries, in the collision. We didn't loose that game because of our scrum.
 

JJJ

Vay Wilson (31)
I found England really looked to target Phipps and Foley, the times we looked good was when we had go forward, crossing the add line in tight, and winning the collision - when this was being done we were earning the right wide.

I'd like to soak of more time with the ball and earning the right.

We had so few scrums in that game, there was not one whist Sio was in the bin - yes I want a dominant set piece, and not one that is crumbling. Are we wanting to dominate every single scrum and loose impact in the loose, with ball carries, in the collision. We didn't loose that game because of our scrum.

Playing with 14 men for 10 minutes certainly didn't help us. Although Ireland managed to make it look easy.
 

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
Playing with 14 men for 10 minutes certainly didn't help us. Although Ireland managed to make it look easy.

I cant remember how many points did we conceed whilst Sio was off, I recall 3 minutes until he returns and though shit we haven't had a scrum and had to replace a loosie.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I won't comment on point 1 other than to say of course he was and so was the Aussie tight head. That is what props do.

Look at the first picture I posted above (its also below) - Holmes and Moore are in parallel. Vunipola is off at a slight angle. Hartley is straight. There is no evidence that Holmes is trying that tactic.

It isn't "what props do" unless they've got a very clear plan. Particularly a THP if its on his own ball.

Cole knew this but decided to try it anyway, and it gave him the desired result against a less experienced opponent. Power to him.




The question is why is Sio setting himself with his legs extended. The answer is obvious. It is the strongest position but it is risky as he has discovered. Perhaps he is not confident that he can match Cole without doing this?

He was looking to dominate, and not smart enough to realise Cole was going to play like that from the get-go. Had to chase his feet harder once he feels the shift.

I believe Poite got a call from one of his ARs that Sio hit the ground first, without any angle from Cole being considered - Moore should have taken that up with the ref immediately, and Sio should have moved his feet.

Poite doesn't really like thinking about scrum decisions. He'd rather let the big boys sort it out themselves. If you're good enough, you benefit from it.




Agreed. I'll need to watch the replay to get a better idea, but from what I recall Cole would've needed a spine like an accordion to fade enough to pull Sio into the kind of overextension he was in.



Not at all - look at the first image I posted above, and where Cole's shoulders are. As a THP his inside shoulder should be ahead of Hartley's right shoulder, and the gap between Cole and Hartley is pronounced. To "fade" you don't need to step back - you just need to deny your opponent a target shoulder.

You only have to move a few centimetres in this situation to disrupt anything, because Sio's bind to his hooker is the most important one he's got. The Loosehead Prop is the Lord Protector of the ball, and allows the hooker to strike. In a lot of ways its a lot easier than THP, but it carries a different set of responsibilities.

The scrum is a carefully constructed piece of work until it comes together, and then its chaos.

Fuck it - here's the image again:

CkqjqxCVAAIxUkD.jpg


Note where Cole's left arm is - he's supposed to bind to Hartley's jersey, but instead has his arm somewhere near the bloke's arse. His right arm bind is completely illegal, and his outside foot is under his hips.

He's not twisting his spine at all - just curving forward and down a little and letting Sio follow him. If he's straight, that scrum stays up and we have a pushing contest.

Instead - rather intelligently - he's letting Sio do all the hard work, then directing him downward. I'm not actually sure Sio could have held himself up, when you look at Cole's form I doubt it. Very big on not going backward, and has a history of elbow pointing at the ground.

Its a kind of smart scrummaging that should be applauded, because it made Sio wary to the point where he got yellow-carded.
 
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