O
OZGOD
Guest
Yea I felt that Toby Flood directed play very poorly at flyhalf. If our scrum was better they'd have finished the match with 3 points.
Wallabies vs England, Perth
- Thread starter Scotty
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Sandpit Fan
Nev Cottrell (35)
Yeah there is a difference between giving a young player a chance, and throwing him/them into a situation where youknow they are going to get belted, it's just a matter of how bad it will be.
The poms looked ordinary in other play, think they made 1 line break, or maybe 2. Flood is not the answer for their 5/8 woes.
M
Mojoman
Guest
The Poms were woeful, too fat, too slow, too disorganised. The only thing they had was their scrum but what a scrum it was. Wallabies needed to do what the Reds did with the Bulls earlier this year in S14. Run them so ragged they ran out of steam when it came to the set piece.
matty_k
Peter Johnson (47)
I'll give that a maybe. The locks played a pretty good game tonight.
However did anyone else notice that Rocky wasn't staying bound or supporting his prop in the scrum. There was a few times where he had a good look before the scrum collapsed.
I did, a few posts up!!!
matty_k
Peter Johnson (47)
Noted but in my defence it was on the previous page.
Ash
Michael Lynagh (62)
Bit drunk, but what irked me about the second penalty try were the two stable scrums before it. The poms pushed and got nowhere for long periods of time and thus the scrum collapsed. They never tried to use the ball. Third time sure they got a shunt on, but they should have lost the ball previously for not even trying to get it out when they knew they were going nowhere.
Lee Grant
John Eales (66)
There's a famous episode of Fawlty Towers in which Basil Fawlty said "Don't mention the war." Let's not mention the scrums. Let's ignore the elephant in the room and assume that if two guys get healthy and two others get called in it will be hunky dory.
I was enthused about the Oz forwards otherwise. I can't remember when they have been so aggressive defending their goal line and they did it in a simple way. They rushed up at the right moment and then tackled low, which meant the ball carrier would at least fall over the tackler.
This is more effective than a tackler, or two of them, attempting to stop a big bruiser by aiming shoulders at his centre of gravity. If you don't get it right the ball carrier can pinball out of the tackle still on his feet. Much better to speed bump him in a low tackle and have your team mate come in to fetch.
That was a huge step forward for the lads and I hope to see that again next week - and if it is a definite coaching ploy, next Tuesday for the Baas as well. Looks like there has been a bit of good work on restarts also.
Oz were more interested in hitting the rucks than Oz A were the other night and the counter-rucking was rewarded. The Clever Dick not committing to the contests was gone and yet they kept enough bodies out of them to stop attacks a few metres wider.
As for the mintie eaters behind the pack: I liked the new scrumhalf. He looked sharp and didn't try to hatch the ball as the other guy did last week. His pass was a lot crisper also and didn't he snipe well when Cooper had everybody's attention? They should get his phone number and call him up some other time if Genia is hurt again.
The hair combers did well in the first quarter but all that was a function of what the forwards were doing. When the Poms held the ball for so long in the 2nd Qtr and the Oz forwards tired defending their line, the backs were not served so well when it was Oz ball. So it was for much of the 2nd half also.
In that first 20 minutes of the test match Oz left a try or two on the park and principally from dropping the pill. You have to convert periods of dominance into points as you know that the good times are not going to last. Nor did they.
As for the elephant: the high risk strategy of Deans did not work and Oz rugby was embarrassed and will lose ground. It's scrum reputation will be damaged with referees again and, like judges in skating and gymnastics, they will assess the Wallabies harshly on reputation in 50/50 scrum situations, as in the bad old times.
The inexperienced props were on a hiding to nothing and it didn't help that they didn't have a decent tight head lock. Sharpe played TH lock for the Force this year and against Fiji and England until Mumm got replaced and he couldn't wait to move over to the left hand side. Horwill is sadly missed and ideally the 2nd lock should be a Super14 TH lock also. Mumm is too light to be an effective scrummaging lock on either side.
The Poms were pants as we thought they would be. A decent team would have beaten us. Tindall is still a cracking player and keep watching Foden at fullback. Him and his mate, winger Ashton, ran rings around folks for the Saints in the GP this year and we could see a bit of that in the 2nd test.
If the Oz forwards are physical like that again and players catch the ball when the Wallabies have chances, the team should do well this year.
But they had better get a vet for the elephant.
I was enthused about the Oz forwards otherwise. I can't remember when they have been so aggressive defending their goal line and they did it in a simple way. They rushed up at the right moment and then tackled low, which meant the ball carrier would at least fall over the tackler.
This is more effective than a tackler, or two of them, attempting to stop a big bruiser by aiming shoulders at his centre of gravity. If you don't get it right the ball carrier can pinball out of the tackle still on his feet. Much better to speed bump him in a low tackle and have your team mate come in to fetch.
That was a huge step forward for the lads and I hope to see that again next week - and if it is a definite coaching ploy, next Tuesday for the Baas as well. Looks like there has been a bit of good work on restarts also.
Oz were more interested in hitting the rucks than Oz A were the other night and the counter-rucking was rewarded. The Clever Dick not committing to the contests was gone and yet they kept enough bodies out of them to stop attacks a few metres wider.
As for the mintie eaters behind the pack: I liked the new scrumhalf. He looked sharp and didn't try to hatch the ball as the other guy did last week. His pass was a lot crisper also and didn't he snipe well when Cooper had everybody's attention? They should get his phone number and call him up some other time if Genia is hurt again.
The hair combers did well in the first quarter but all that was a function of what the forwards were doing. When the Poms held the ball for so long in the 2nd Qtr and the Oz forwards tired defending their line, the backs were not served so well when it was Oz ball. So it was for much of the 2nd half also.
In that first 20 minutes of the test match Oz left a try or two on the park and principally from dropping the pill. You have to convert periods of dominance into points as you know that the good times are not going to last. Nor did they.
As for the elephant: the high risk strategy of Deans did not work and Oz rugby was embarrassed and will lose ground. It's scrum reputation will be damaged with referees again and, like judges in skating and gymnastics, they will assess the Wallabies harshly on reputation in 50/50 scrum situations, as in the bad old times.
The inexperienced props were on a hiding to nothing and it didn't help that they didn't have a decent tight head lock. Sharpe played TH lock for the Force this year and against Fiji and England until Mumm got replaced and he couldn't wait to move over to the left hand side. Horwill is sadly missed and ideally the 2nd lock should be a Super14 TH lock also. Mumm is too light to be an effective scrummaging lock on either side.
The Poms were pants as we thought they would be. A decent team would have beaten us. Tindall is still a cracking player and keep watching Foden at fullback. Him and his mate, winger Ashton, ran rings around folks for the Saints in the GP this year and we could see a bit of that in the 2nd test.
If the Oz forwards are physical like that again and players catch the ball when the Wallabies have chances, the team should do well this year.
But they had better get a vet for the elephant.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
I felt the umpire had been reading the media all week and rocked up to the game expecting to penalise Australia. It seemed that we were getting pushed back, yet were doing nothing wrong and he wanted to penalise us.
It really shat me with the penalty tries, the ball was sitting looking peachy keen at the back of the scrum and we were still penalised. If the ball is at the back and the scrum goes to shit surely the expectation is England just USES the ball.
Sigh, I think what really annoys me is the fact I love scrums and they honestly ruined both our performance and the spectacle tonight.
It really shat me with the penalty tries, the ball was sitting looking peachy keen at the back of the scrum and we were still penalised. If the ball is at the back and the scrum goes to shit surely the expectation is England just USES the ball.
Sigh, I think what really annoys me is the fact I love scrums and they honestly ruined both our performance and the spectacle tonight.
en_force_er
Geoff Shaw (53)
I felt the umpire had been reading the media all week and rocked up to the game expecting to penalise Australia. It seemed that we were getting pushed back, yet were doing nothing wrong and he wanted to penalise us.
It really shat me with the penalty tries, the ball was sitting looking peachy keen at the back of the scrum and we were still penalised. If the ball is at the back and the scrum goes to shit surely the expectation is England just USES the ball.
Sigh, I think what really annoys me is the fact I love scrums and they honestly ruined both our performance and the spectacle tonight.
It really shat me with the penalty tries, the ball was sitting looking peachy keen at the back of the scrum and we were still penalised. If the ball is at the back and the scrum goes to shit surely the expectation is England just USES the ball.
Sigh, I think what really annoys me is the fact I love scrums and they honestly ruined both our performance and the spectacle tonight.
Langthorne
Phil Hardcastle (33)
I'm not going to ignore the elephant in the room. The front row was utter crap in the scrums. So bad, in fact, that it almost cost the Wallabies the game. Don't start trying to make excuses please. It wasn't because the second rowers and back rowers didn't push. It wasn't because of the ref. It wasn't because of anything except that the players selected are not good enough. Jim Williams knew it. The Poms knew it. Blind Freddy knew it. Now, hopefully, Robbie Deans is also aware of it (because I'm pretty sure Australia's next opponents will be licking their lips at the prospect packing down against that scrum).
I thought the referee was very lenient indeed (he even gave the Wallabies a BS penalty at one point). Most other refs (especially the s14 ones) would have used a card much sooner, and also penalised all those scrums that went down before the ball was cleared. Instead he forced the (useless - Danny Care) take the ball out of the scrum when the Wallabies collapsed it. If England have secured the ball inside the scrum at the feet of the number 8 there is no reason why they can't just keep on pushing on. If I was the England pack I'd have set up for a pushover from my own 5m line - better than letting those useless inside backs get their hands or feet on it (assuming they didn't just knock on).
The whole debacle reminded me of the Eddie Jones era.
OK, on to the positives.
- none of the uninjured potential Wallaby front rowers can now be ruled out because they smashed by the poms (or anyone else) or else there won't be anyone left to play. If that was an objection to bringing back Baxter, it no longer exists. In fact, the way is clear for bringing the best performing Australian THP from this year's s14 back into the squad (he has even dominated the England scrum last time he faced them)
- the general forward play at the breakdown and in defence was excellent. They really smashed the English there, and were very fast and precise too.
- Burgess had a great game. Hopefully this is the new level he will maintain (obviously he won't get such an easy time against the Bok and ABs, but the performance was there). Realistically, he will be Genia's back up, so I am content with that level of peformance.
- Actually, all the backs did very well. Again, the English were poor, but their performance was very good.
The win is great, but the same performance against a good team would not bring the same result.
I thought the referee was very lenient indeed (he even gave the Wallabies a BS penalty at one point). Most other refs (especially the s14 ones) would have used a card much sooner, and also penalised all those scrums that went down before the ball was cleared. Instead he forced the (useless - Danny Care) take the ball out of the scrum when the Wallabies collapsed it. If England have secured the ball inside the scrum at the feet of the number 8 there is no reason why they can't just keep on pushing on. If I was the England pack I'd have set up for a pushover from my own 5m line - better than letting those useless inside backs get their hands or feet on it (assuming they didn't just knock on).
The whole debacle reminded me of the Eddie Jones era.
OK, on to the positives.
- none of the uninjured potential Wallaby front rowers can now be ruled out because they smashed by the poms (or anyone else) or else there won't be anyone left to play. If that was an objection to bringing back Baxter, it no longer exists. In fact, the way is clear for bringing the best performing Australian THP from this year's s14 back into the squad (he has even dominated the England scrum last time he faced them)
- the general forward play at the breakdown and in defence was excellent. They really smashed the English there, and were very fast and precise too.
- Burgess had a great game. Hopefully this is the new level he will maintain (obviously he won't get such an easy time against the Bok and ABs, but the performance was there). Realistically, he will be Genia's back up, so I am content with that level of peformance.
- Actually, all the backs did very well. Again, the English were poor, but their performance was very good.
The win is great, but the same performance against a good team would not bring the same result.
liquor box
Peter Sullivan (51)
I would also like the Reds tactic of letting the opposition form a maul at the lineout without touching them to earn a penalty used as well. I really makes the opposition think about what to do rather than execute a plan.
C
chief
Guest
Front row was utter shit, but Owens was allowing them to push a lot earlier. I thought the 2nd Penalty Try, was not a penalty try either. Far too ballsy to call.
Bring back Baxter
Bring back Baxter
TheRiddler
Dave Cowper (27)
Whilst the front row suffered as many thought they would, I am going to take a positive from the experience. In short, I think that three rugby boys took a big step to becoming rugby men last night. Yes, they were torn a new one but they also all probably grew a pair! There is really only one way to get better at playing test rugby and that is to play test rugby. They got an education of the highest order last night that will hopefully see them accelerate their competency at the top level. Yes, we could bring back Baxter, Dunning etc but what's the point. We have proved we can still win games with a dodgy scrum. I would rather see these guys continue to develop and grow so that come a certain event next year, hopefully we do have some proper, experienced depth.
mark_s
Chilla Wilson (44)
Just watched the first penalty try again.
Scrum 1, Daley's side of the scrum gets completely splintered - Daley and Mumm end up being spat out the side of the scrum. Owens probably blows it a bit early as the poms were almost certain to drive over and score but arguably owens blows it for safety reasons given Daley was spread eagle. MAafu (although going backwards) still has a good engage on his side when Owen blows it.
Scrum 2, Maafu packs with his kness on the ground. Scrum is unstready and england shove straight from the hit. In other circumstances the poms could be pinged for not even trying to hold the engagement but fair call by Owens given the preceding scrum and given that MAafu was too low. Brown is not engaged at all at the back of the scrum.
Scrum 3, We pack low and nulify the poms hit, but scrum collapses straight away. All 3 Aus backrowers are meercatting and have very loose binds.
Scrum 4, Owens tells both teams he wants a slower and stable engagement. Maafu gets popped. Daly is struggling to hold is side of the scrum when this happens but still has a good bind and good body height at the time. However Daly then goes down (slips or forced down) and the scrum completely disintergrates. Fainga'a ends up being spat out and is standing there by himself (wider than Pocock) when Owens heads for the posts. The pom pack is still (by and large) in formation.
In short, there were problems with binds and body height all through the tight 5. The poms had 30kgs on us as well which guaranteed any weakenesses would be magnified. I suspect Mumm will go back to the bench (or possibly to the back row). Chisholm will start. Everyone will be watching the Gosford game before deciding on what changes to make to the front row but they will be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water. The worst outcome is that we end up with another weak scrum (even if slightly better than last night) but also weaken our general play. Oh, and this passage was pretty well reffed by Owens.
Scrum 1, Daley's side of the scrum gets completely splintered - Daley and Mumm end up being spat out the side of the scrum. Owens probably blows it a bit early as the poms were almost certain to drive over and score but arguably owens blows it for safety reasons given Daley was spread eagle. MAafu (although going backwards) still has a good engage on his side when Owen blows it.
Scrum 2, Maafu packs with his kness on the ground. Scrum is unstready and england shove straight from the hit. In other circumstances the poms could be pinged for not even trying to hold the engagement but fair call by Owens given the preceding scrum and given that MAafu was too low. Brown is not engaged at all at the back of the scrum.
Scrum 3, We pack low and nulify the poms hit, but scrum collapses straight away. All 3 Aus backrowers are meercatting and have very loose binds.
Scrum 4, Owens tells both teams he wants a slower and stable engagement. Maafu gets popped. Daly is struggling to hold is side of the scrum when this happens but still has a good bind and good body height at the time. However Daly then goes down (slips or forced down) and the scrum completely disintergrates. Fainga'a ends up being spat out and is standing there by himself (wider than Pocock) when Owens heads for the posts. The pom pack is still (by and large) in formation.
In short, there were problems with binds and body height all through the tight 5. The poms had 30kgs on us as well which guaranteed any weakenesses would be magnified. I suspect Mumm will go back to the bench (or possibly to the back row). Chisholm will start. Everyone will be watching the Gosford game before deciding on what changes to make to the front row but they will be careful about throwing out the baby with the bath water. The worst outcome is that we end up with another weak scrum (even if slightly better than last night) but also weaken our general play. Oh, and this passage was pretty well reffed by Owens.
rsea
Darby Loudon (17)
I thought that our young front row did a great job. They obviously weren't up to Englands standard but they showed allot of heart and did well at times. Should Baxter have been recalled? I doubt the scrum would've been any better with Baxter on the field but I'm sure those with a shrine to the big man at home will surely disagree. Where to go from here? I can't see any improvement in the scrum until we get some cattle back but it could get messy.
Scarfman
Knitter of the Scarf
A good account of the game:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jun/12/england-australia-rugby-union
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jun/12/england-australia-rugby-union
W
Wallabies
Guest
England played their same boring style of play again and couldn't even capitalise enough on their huge scrum advantage against Australia to take the win. They're in big trouble if they can't even beat such an understrength Wallabies front row. I will enjoy watching a match against England with the bens and moore back!
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