Wallaby 31 players for 2015 RWC

[Brumby Runner]

We'd have to be nuts to discard Simmons for Carter at this stage.

I think there is only a split hair between them. They play very similar games, and a lot of their work goes unnoticed. They are both very good lineout operators with Rob having the extra string to his bow in calling them. I do think Carter has more impact and is more effective in disrupting mauls. Neither are great at bending the line with ball in hand, but both can occasionally make good breaks and both have scored tries by backing up others who break the line.

They both have high workloads which is where their value to the team is often overlooked. As far as statistics go, I think you'll find that Carter hits more rucks, is more effective and makes more tackles than Simmons as a rule. (Forcefield might be able to verify or correct this).

They both give away unnecessary penalties, and that seems to have increased for Sam since Cheika apparently has indicated he wants more aggression from his locks.

Not a lot between them imo and both should be in the RWC squad with one starting and one as backup either on the bench or as injury cover.

 

[Braveheart81]

Furthermore, this whole "Simmons will give away a penalty rah rah rah. He's a bone-headed player. No discipline" thing is a myth that has persisted long beyond it's period of validity, similar to "Quade can't tackle", "AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can't pass" etc.

It's as recent as the first Bledisloe last year that Simmons gave away a silly yellow card that ended up being very costly for the Wallabies.

I agree though that on the whole he's reined in that problem with his game and it's no longer apparent.

Fardy is another who has a habit of giving away excessive penalties.

Assuming he now remains healthy, I think Simmons is the first lock picked for the Wallabies these days and Skelton is likely to partner him in the starting side.

In terms of the requirements for lock, all the aspects of the game are important but I think it comes down to getting all your bases covered effectively from the partnership rather than 50% each from the individual.

Our locks need to be able to hold the scrum together and that was a problem last year with Skelton. At least at Super Rugby level, that problem seems to have been fixed. This is probably the biggest area where neither can be a weak link.

One excellent lineout jumper is enough because they will attract most of the attention and with good calling can find other options who are less heavily marked. Often we don't run 7 man lineouts either.

Likewise, at least one of the locks needs to be a strong ball runner. The combination of Simmons and Carter isn't good enough in that regard. All our biggest games are largely decided by the forward battle and that requires the team to win the physical contest and get over the advantage line. At test level it's no good to only have a couple of ball running options because they get too heavily marked and get nowhere.

Like backrow discussions, the question of balance is important for our locks. They need to be able to fulfil the qualities required at lock but also ensure that across the whole forward pack we have the necessary requirements covered.

 

[Wilson]

Simmons has also shown himself to be an excellent scrummaging lock, and as near as it can be judged he looks to be the best in Australia at scrum time.

 

[Viking]

I think our best 4 locks are Skelton, Coleman, Carter and Arnold.

I do rate Carter, despite his average carrying ability. He's a workhorse, with good technique.

The bread and butter for a lock, is the ability to win lineouts, then scrummage, then clean out rucks, then tackle, THEN carry the ball. He's very good at the first four and average (IE not better or worse than any of our other locks) at the 5th.

It didn't work paired with Simmons, because they play the same way, but paired with Skelton it would work. Our maul defence would be much better as well, none of our other locks are as good at destroying a maul as them.

It's not just poor ball carrying, its weakness in the contact-zone. He makes lots of tackles but they are fairly passive.

 

[Viking]

Fardy gives away a lot more penalties.

Yes but Fardy goes for lots of turnovers too. At least his penalties are based on pushing the boundaries just a bit too far. Most of Simmons penalties are just complete brain-farts. Although he's getting better.

 

[Tomikin]

Are they worth less points?

Point taken .. I've really got no leg to stand on.. I do believe though this year the Brumbies have been better.. Although I think when the heat has been put on they have fallen back into bad Habits.

 

[Viking]

It's as recent as the first Bledisloe last year that Simmons gave away a silly yellow card that ended up being very costly for the Wallabies.

I agree though that on the whole he's reined in that problem with his game and it's no longer apparent.

Fardy is another who has a habit of giving away excessive penalties.

Assuming he now remains healthy, I think Simmons is the first lock picked for the Wallabies these days and Skelton is likely to partner him in the starting side.

In terms of the requirements for lock, all the aspects of the game are important but I think it comes down to getting all your bases covered effectively from the partnership rather than 50% each from the individual.

Our locks need to be able to hold the scrum together and that was a problem last year with Skelton. At least at Super Rugby level, that problem seems to have been fixed. This is probably the biggest area where neither can be a weak link.

One excellent lineout jumper is enough because they will attract most of the attention and with good calling can find other options who are less heavily marked. Often we don't run 7 man lineouts either.

Likewise, at least one of the locks needs to be a strong ball runner. The combination of Simmons and Carter isn't good enough in that regard. All our biggest games are largely decided by the forward battle and that requires the team to win the physical contest and get over the advantage line. At test level it's no good to only have a couple of ball running options because they get too heavily marked and get nowhere.

Like backrow discussions, the question of balance is important for our locks. They need to be able to fulfil the qualities required at lock but also ensure that across the whole forward pack we have the necessary requirements covered.

I agree with this. Skelton has improved in his weak areas, scrum and workrate this year. I see the most balanced combo being Skelton with Simmon/Carter.

There really is no back-up to Skelton though that will offer the same balance.

 

[Braveheart81]

Teams are always going to give away penalties. You want to give away penalties in situations that either benefit your team (like when your team is scrambling under pressure; but not to the extent where you get yellow carded) or provide an opportunity to win the ball (such as penalties at the breakdown).

We need to avoid the coach-killer penalties that are just dumb and costly such as pointless offsides and interfering with a player in the air in the lineout. I think these ones convince referees that a team lacks discipline and makes it more likely that you'll lose out on the 50/50 decisions such as scrum and breakdown penalties.

 

[BDA]

I think both Fardy and Simmons get penalised regularly because they tend to compete hard for the ball (Simo in the line-out, and Fardy at the ruck and lineout).

Horwill is more of a worry. Recently he has become accustomed to being ultra lazy at the ruck. He's often offside or just lying in the ruck. possibly has something to do with his apparent loss of mobility.

 

[Slim 293]

Yup.

Is there any stats to back up that claim?

Because both of these guys give away a lot of penalties, and I don't know who gives away more......... But a lot more?

Side note - Brumbies are the least penalised team in the comp this year...........

 

[MonkeyBoy]

I'd rate scrumming and general work (including running it and maul defence) easily as much as lineout. Hear me out. If you have a couple of 200cm + units, and good lifters, the winning of lineout will be as much about the quality of throwing and calling as anything. If you have a good 6 and 8 jumper as well, you have options that can adapt for an average jumper at lock. If the locks are big enough and don't have 2 left hands, you'll be OK if the other factors are in place - their size is more important here. If you have 200cm + locks that have shit scrum technique, they're a limited commodity, I reckon. Same too if they can't carry and their defence is mediocre. Look at Skelton - last year he was a poor scrum technician, and was used very rarely in lineouts and had only his ball running and maul defence, yet was a key player for the Tahs. This year his scrummaging has improved, he takes only a few more lineouts now, but he is now being mentioned as more likely to start for the Wallabies. Lose a couple of lineouts, and it's a pain. Lose scrums all night, and you lose players to the bin. Lose the breakdown too, and you're fucked.
I'm not undervaluing a great lineout technician (look at Matfield - but we don't have a Matfield), but these days I think all the other stuff is easily as important, if not more so. Look at what Retallick and Whitelock do, and I rate them as the premier locking combo internationally currently.
Just a theory of mine.

Interesting the stats just out on the Super Rugby page indicate that Lineouts are the biggest start point for scoring tries ergo giving Simmons/Fardy a leg up for selection:
http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/stats-feature-where-do-tries-originate/

 

[Braveheart81]

Interesting the stats just out on the Super Rugby page indicate that Lineouts are the biggest start point for scoring tries ergo giving Simmons/Fardy a leg up for selection:
http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/stats-feature-where-do-tries-originate/

I think you need to go deeper into the statistics when looking at this though.

A lot of those lineouts would have been attacking lineouts where there is little pressure in the air from the defensive side because they are preparing to defend the rolling maul.

If I was to hazard a guess, the two things I'd put down to the Brumbies being so strong in that area is:

1. Nic White is really good and aggressive at trying to find touch 5m out from the opposition line. This means that the rolling maul is more of a threat and also means the defence is less likely to contest in the air.

2. The Brumbies have a very good rolling maul making them a big threat from this position which either allows tries directly from the maul or when they suck plenty of players into the maul, they find gaps further out wide.

Let's also remember that some of these tries from lineouts could be 15 phases after the lineout and have little to do with the actual lineout.

 

[Wilson]

How many of those lineouts came from a kick for touch off of a scrum penalty?

 

[Brumbieman]

Fardy gives away a lot more penalties.

Being penalised for walking the tightrope at the breakdown, is a little different to late spear tackles.

 

[Brumbieman]

Carter was good against a poor French side (the last June international window) but facing top class teams he was dominated

He was excellent against the Blicks in Brisbane, and the Boks in SA last year. We fell apart when he went off, not while he was on the field.

I do agree that he's not playing as well as he was last year though

 

[cyclopath]

Interesting the stats just out on the Super Rugby page indicate that Lineouts are the biggest start point for scoring tries ergo giving Simmons/Fardy a leg up for selection:
http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/stats-feature-where-do-tries-originate/

Well, Simmons scrums well, tackles well and maybe just needs some extra grunt in the dirty work. I don't think Simmons is a one-trick lineout pony at all. Fardy would be in already, for mine. I wouldn't omit a lock if they did all the other stuff pretty well but were not a major lineout taker, especially if the 6 and 8 were good options there. So, my position would not change!

 

[TOCC]

Being penalised for walking the tightrope at the breakdown, is a little different to late spear tackles.

I'm so sick of rubbish comments you keep making about late spear tackles and Simmons tackling the referee...

How about you start looking at the stats and player ratings from last years tests instead.


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[Slim 293]

What stats are we talking about?

As for player ratings........

Don't recall Simmons scoring too highly last year............

 

[TOCC]

For all this talk of Carter, i like to use the big matches as a gauge to a players ability and in in the Waratahs vs Brumbies game i thought he was comprehensively outplayed by both Dennis and Skelton, even Arnold put in a better performance that day.

 

[Slim 293]

I'm not sure how this Simmons v Fardy debate got started or why we're even discussing it...........

But there's some silly remarks being thrown out there............