Waratahs 2013

[Inside Shoulder]

Gnostic and fatprop are you guys describing the same thing?

 

[Gnostic]

Gnostic and fatprop are you guys describing the same thing?

I think so. I must now go and have a little rest to recover.

For all the sometimes spiteful commentary on the Tahs last year there was a very definite structure. It was a shite structure to be sure, but it was there. The issue IMO remains execution of basic skills and application to the task, but I am happy that if they execute the Tahs with this structure can do more than scrape out tight wins.

 

[fatprop]

I think so. I must now go and have a little rest to recover.

For all the sometimes spiteful commentary on the Tahs last year there was a very definite structure. It was a shite structure to be sure, but it was there. The issue IMO remains execution of basic skills and application to the task, but I am happy that if they execute the Tahs with this structure can do more than scrape out tight wins.

Yep, Tahs made enough half breaks to win the game, their accuracy and execution was the issue

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Gnostic and fatprop I'm going to go home and watch the Tahs second half (and maybe the first half again) and see if I can agree.

 

[Bullrush]

Here's what I don't get about the 'He inherited this squad' comment:

Adam Ashley-Cooper - Wallaby
Berick Barnes - Wallaby
Dave Dennis - Wallaby
Kane Douglas - Wallaby
Rob Horne - Wallaby
Michael Hooper - Wallaby
Sekope Kepu - Wallaby
Drew Mitchell - Wallaby
Wycliff Palu - Wallaby
TPN - Wallaby
Benn Robinson - Wallaby
Sitaleki Timani - Wallaby
Lachie Turner - Wallaby

and then chuck in good role players and up-and-comers like:

Israel Folau
John Ulugia
Peter Betham
Tom Carter
Bernard Foley

It's hardly like he inherited a pittance is it?!

 

[I like to watch]

I wonder how many Wallabies are playing in this comp?
Or even how many guys were selected as Wallabies last year.
Bullrush, how many of the players listed do you consider to be the best in their positions?

 

[qwerty51]

Here's what I don't get about the 'He inherited this squad' comment

He's picked Folau, Volavola, Chapman and now Will Skelton*. That's why he inherited his squad, the rest were not his decisions. Compare this to other 1st year coaches such as White and JK who had a say in much more of their squad.

*Secured the final EPS spot vacated by Lane

Says a bit about Atkins and Peterson

 

[Bullrush]

I wonder how many Wallabies are playing in this comp?

I don't know.

Or even how many guys were selected as Wallabies last year.

I don't know.

Bullrush, how many of the players listed do you consider to be the best in their positions?

It doesn't matter.

The point is that Cheika actually does have a very good squad. At some stage in their careers, all of those guys I've named have been considered good enough to pull on the Wallaby jersey and represent Australia. Some of them on numerous occasions. And I'd put money on a few of them doing it again in the future. The question I think that no-one seems to be asking is....can Cheika get the best out of his current players?

 

[Richo]

The question I think that no-one seems to be asking is..can Cheika get the best out of his current players?

I don't think people are ignoring that question, they've just been asking it in a slightly different way: are the current players the right ones for Cheika? I think he has decided he wants to build a particular type of team, rather than cobble together what he can with the players he has. This season is about a) instituting a system and culture, and b) working out which of the current players will fit within that system and culture.

 

[Bullrush]

He's picked Folau, Volavola, Chapman and now Will Skelton*. That's why he inherited his squad, the rest were not his decisions. Compare this to other 1st year coaches such as White and JK who had a say in much more of their squad.

*Secured the final EPS spot vacated by Lane

Says a bit about Atkins and Peterson

I get why people say he inherited the squad. I don't get how inheriting all those Wallabies is supposed to be a bad thing.

Let's say that a kiwi coach inherited:

Colin Slade
Benson Stanley
Jason Eaton
Tanirau Latimer
Nick Evans
Daniel Braid
John Afoa
Joe Rocokoco
Jerome Kaino
Corey Flynn
Neemia Tialata
Anthony Boric
Rudi Wulf

Most people would think that there's a pretty good foundation for a solid squad. Only Jerome Kaino would be considered the best in his position......but building a winning team is so much more than simply having the best players in all the positions. Good coaches build great teams and I think that the Waratahs squad Cheika 'inherited' was pretty bloody solid.

 

[Bullrush]

I don't think people are ignoring that question, they've just been asking it in a slightly different way: are the current players the right ones for Cheika? I think he has decided he wants to build a particular type of team, rather than cobble together what he can with the players he has. This season is about a) instituting a system and culture, and b) working out which of the current players will fit within that system and culture.

If that's true then I don't think he's a good coach. It's like calling him da Vinci cos he's painting the Mona Lisa by numbers but he doesn't have the right colours. Or watching him trying to make one of those fit-together bookcases from K-Mart without enough screws and calling it carpentry.

Hell, it's like going to the Chicago Bulls in 1992 and trying to build your game plan around Bill Cartwright and Stacey King.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't think people are ignoring that question, they've just been asking it in a slightly different way: are the current players the right ones for Cheika? I think he has decided he wants to build a particular type of team, rather than cobble together what he can with the players he has. This season is about a) instituting a system and culture, and b) working out which of the current players will fit within that system and culture.

I also think people are assuming in Cheika's favour that he can get the best out of them. At this stage that's a legitimate position.
I wonder about a dynamic where some of these blokes know that they aren't part of his long term plans.

 

[Richo]

If that's true then I don't think he's a good coach. It's like calling him da Vinci cos he's painting the Mona Lisa by numbers but he doesn't have the right colours. Or watching him trying to make one of those fit-together bookcases from K-Mart without enough screws and calling it carpentry.

Hell, it's like going to the Chicago Bulls in 1992 and trying to build your game plan around Bill Cartwright and Stacey King.

I think that's gotta be the first time anyone ever compared a current Waratah to Michael Jordan!

I disagree with your premise. Almost all top coaches have some kind of system. They recruit and train players to fit that system. It's why coaches get influence or control over personnel -- they don't want to coach players who can't play the way they want to.

 

[Richo]

I also think people are assuming in Cheika's favour that he can get the best out of them. At this stage that's a legitimate position.
I wonder about a dynamic where some of these blokes know that they aren't part of his long term plans.

I suspect we'll see some of the blokes off to Japan or Europe slip more and more out of favour, especially if making the finals becomes impossible.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

If that's true then I don't think he's a good coach. It's like calling him da Vinci cos he's painting the Mona Lisa by numbers but he doesn't have the right colours. Or watching him trying to make one of those fit-together bookcases from K-Mart without enough screws and calling it carpentry.

Hell, it's like going to the Chicago Bulls in 1992 and trying to build your game plan around Bill Cartwright and Stacey King.

Love the comparisons - although the Chicago 1992 references threw me: is Bill Cartwright related to Nancy?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I suspect we'll see some of the blokes off to Japan or Europe slip more and more out of favour, especially if making the finals becomes impossible.

That's more than fine with me!

 

[Bullrush]

I think that's gotta be the first time anyone ever compared a current Waratah to Michael Jordan!

I disagree with your premise. Almost all top coaches have some kind of system. They recruit and train players to fit that system. It's why coaches get influence or control over personnel -- they don't want to coach players who can't play the way they want to.

LOL.....no-one compares to Michael!

Time will tell I suppose but I just don't think this squad is as bad as some people are making it out to be. It makes me think about what will happen to Jamie Joseph if the Highlanders don't improve pretty quickly.

 

[qwerty51]

It doesn't matter how good the players are, it's quite possible they don't fit into the style of play Cheika wants.

 

[wamberal]

Cheika applied for the job. He was not press-ganged into it. He knew what sort of squad he was taking on.


Let's stop turning the clock back, if he is such a wonderful coach, let him show it.


Jake White also took on a squad, one that had not exactly set the world on fire.

 

[qwerty51]

Jake White was coach from April 2011. Cheika was coach from September 2012. Big difference in the say of the squad there.