Waratahs 2013

[Inside Shoulder]

I know that, you are missing my point. When Cronk, Slater, Smith, first joined the Storm they didn't have the name or the experience to command the $ they do now.
A keen eye picked them when they were young, and a good coach matured their talent

Well Tombs had already toured as a wallaby before he came down here so give Dwyer the credit for that. Also he was an Oz schoolboy.
Dwyer picked Kearns from Randwick reserve grade and my usual scepticism re Randwick is overborne in this case by the fact that Eddie Jones was the 1st grade and NSW hooker at the time.
McKenzie came up from Vic to Randwick some time prior to 86...coach: Dwyer (is my prediction). he played for combined states in oz schools championships, i think.
Not full bottle on Daly - he played for Randwick but i cannot remember when: he was an Australian schoolboy.
So there's a common thread but it wasnt McQueen and it had a few little ripples in it in that Dwyer was not the coach of NSW and never had been to that point.
Tombs did not actually play on the 1991 RWC campaign and did not play a test until later.
So the analogy with the Storm/Bellamy and NSW/McQueen is complicated by the presence of the national coach - who actually spotted them all.

 

[Dave Beat]

Well Tombs had already toured as a wallaby before he came down here so give Dwyer the credit for that. Also he was an Oz schoolboy.
Dwyer picked Kearns from Randwick reserve grade and my usual scepticism re Randwick is overborne in this case by the fact that Eddie Jones was the 1st grade and NSW hooker at the time.
McKenzie came up from Vic to Randwick some time prior to 86.coach: Dwyer (is my prediction). he played for combined states in oz schools championships, i think.
Not full bottle on Daly - he played for Randwick but i cannot remember when: he was an Australian schoolboy.
So there's a common thread but it wasnt McQueen and it had a few little ripples in it in that Dwyer was not the coach of NSW and never had been to that point.
Tombs did not actually play on the 1991 RWC campaign and did not play a test until later.
So the analogy with the Storm/Bellamy and NSW/McQueen is complicated by the presence of the national coach - who actually spotted them all.

IS thanks for the history class, it is an era that I enjoyed and we were blessed with a number of good coaches back then. The point I was trying to make was back then some coaches spotted some very young talent and threw them in with some grounded old heads, good coaches and we had a very balanced team. Yeah there are $ now and that adds another challenge.
Yeah Tombs and Knox (i think he was the other bench warmer?) got a heap of match time in the 91WC.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

IS thanks for the history class, it is an era that I enjoyed and we were blessed with a number of good coaches back then. The point I was trying to make was back then some coaches spotted some very young talent and threw them in with some grounded old heads and we had a very balanced team. Yeah there are $ now and that adds another challenge.
Yeah Tombs and Knox (i think he was the other bench warmer?) got a heap of match time in the 91WC.

Correct on Tombs and Knox.
You suggested that they were drawn like moths to a flame by McQueen - when I analysed it the common denominator became apparent, thats all.
I've posted in other threads: part of the problem with all oz rugby at the moment is that everyone is looking for the next big thing instead of letting the next big thing emerge from sound structures on and off the field.

 

[Dave Beat]

Correct on Tombs and Knox.
You suggested that they were drawn like moths to a flame by McQueen - when I analysed it the common denominator became apparent, thats all.
I've posted in other threads: part of the problem with all oz rugby at the moment is that everyone is looking for the next big thing instead of letting the next big thing emerge from sound structures on and off the field.

I may have made it confusing, I think to much time is spent looking, I think more than one could emerge if you give it some light as there are good structures in place. Existing Contracts are casting a large shadow

 

[Braveheart81]

I may have made it confusing, I think to much time is spent looking, I think more than one could emerge if you give it some light as there are good structures in place. Existing Contracts are casting a large shadow

The Tahs currently have 6 out of 35 positions locked in for next year (or will the number rise due to requiring an extra prop in every team?).

That seems like as much of a blank canvas as an existing Super Rugby franchise is ever going to get.

Out of the 6 players currently contracted, Michael Hooper and Dave Dennis would be the only two on substantial contracts.

 

[Dave Beat]

The Tahs currently have 6 out of 35 positions locked in for next year (or will the number rise due to requiring an extra prop in every team?).

That seems like as much of a blank canvas as an existing Super Rugby franchise is ever going to get.

Out of the 6 players currently contracted, Michael Hooper and Dave Dennis would be the only two on substantial contracts.

Looks great

 

[fatprop]

Conrad Smith or Andrew Smith? I would venture that Andrew Smith passes the ball to his wingers many more times than do the Tahs' centres, but significantly, he does it when the winger is in a better position to advance the play.

It was just who started on the weekend so Conrad, Andrew Smith? well methinks there would not be a statistically relevant difference between the lot of them, my point is that 98% (made up number) of the time 13s these days truck it up.

There is a great video on the main site highlighting the changes in 13 play over the last 20 years, the only real time these days any 13 catches & passes is from turnover ball trying to go around a short defensive line, the rest of the time they pass when they run out of options.

 

[BPC]

I think that Foley is the guy to play 10 going forward but I'd be very happy to have Beale back in the side. He's a better 10 than Barnes is at test or super rugby level.

I wonder if Foley could/should play 12 to Beale's 10 if we lure him back from Mexico? If we are playing a more expansive game under Cheika's direction would a two playmaker system be better to a more traditional inside/outside centre combination?

 

[BPC]

or talking up the tahs chances next year

2014 will be our year, mark my words!

 

[Braveheart81]

I wonder if Foley could/should play 12 to Beale's 10 if we lure him back from Mexico? If we are playing a more expansive game under Cheika's direction would a two playmaker system be better to a more traditional inside/outside centre combination?

I think a stronger 12 is needed in modern rugby. Beale's defence isn't great so I don't think playing him at 10 and Foley at 12 would be that good.

I think an inbetween player at 12 is ideal and your second playmaker at fullback works well.

Ideally I think you want someone like Tapuai, Lealiifano, or Barnes at 12 (and Godwin is quickly becoming a strong player as well) that are very strong defenders but also have some (or lots) of playmaking ability.

Your fullback is then the other player who can chime into the backline as an alternative first receiver (on the opposite side of the ruck to the 10) or can join the line wider out to help set up the outside backs.

 

[fatprop]

I would prefer us to build a side rather than poach

Beale coming back? fine, he is a Tah.

Tapuai, Lealiifano or Godwin? Lets just develop some depth from some younglings and create a NSW Dynasty and a team.

 

[Braveheart81]

Tapuai, Lealiifano or Godwin? Lets just develop some depth from some younglings and create a NSW Dynasty and a team.

I was really just naming some players I thought were good modern 12s.

I think the Tahs will have plenty of cash freed up by high profile players going overseas at the end of the season.

I'd prefer us to spend it on recruiting an established Wallaby or fringe Wallaby than spend it on another league convert or foreign marquee player.

It's not like you're going to need to spend the money from Barnes/Palu/Mitchell's contracts (or whoever leaves) to recruit young guys from the Shute Shield. Players without existing Super Rugby contracts are cheap.

 

[wamberal]

If NSW, with its junior (and senior) player strength cannot produce a consistent, winning team, what hope does the game have?


BTW, I wonder how many unrecognised Hugh Pyles there are running around, or rather, not running around, or running around in loig, when they should be playing for the Tahs?


And I wonder how long it will be before the penny drops that having a Shute Shield competition that is dominated by a couple of very rich clubs (or whatever the Camperdown Clique really is) is not good for the wider game?

 

[Braveheart81]

The Shute Shield and Premier Rugby are effectively the major feeder comps for all five Australian teams.

There is no reason that the Tahs shouldn't be looking everywhere in Australia for new players and there is also no reason to expect that the Shute Shield is purely the Waratahs domain to recruit players from.

 

[Lindommer]

IS thanks for the history class, it is an era that I enjoyed and we were blessed with a number of good coaches back then.

DB, your memory of Macqueen's involvement may've been alluding to his stint as coach of New South Wales in 1991. That was a particularly good year for NSW rugby, they toured Argentina and New Zealand early that winter, drew one game and won the rest. AND THEY BEAT THOSE MONGRELS FROM NORTH OF THE TWEED 2 FROM 2, Macqueen's teams didn't lose a match that year. There's no doubt the polish Rod put on the blue boys contributed mightily to Dwyer's success later at the RWC.

But credit where credit's due: Dwyer brought Horan (and Little) and Kearns into the Oz team, and he put the Randwick front row together for the Wallabies. Egerton played in Macqueen's touring side as a winger (he played fullback for Sydney Uni) as Roebuck was the incumbent 15. Dwyer liked what he saw and gave him a run against England and the ABs in the June tests. I was in the front row of the upper stand at the SFS and cheered for that magnificent try he scored against the ABs, left Kirwan grasping thin air.

 

[Brumby Jack]

Sekope Kepu has re-signed for another 2 years.

 

[Braveheart81]

Sekope Kepu has re-signed for another 2 years.

I'm happy with this news. His form so far this season hasn't been good but he's a quality player.

Especially when Super Rugby moves to 23 man teams next season, having a good stable of props will be even more critical. He's coming into the prime age for a prop and I'd prefer the Tahs to keep him than have to find someone else.

 

[fatprop]

I'm happy with this news. His form so far this season hasn't been good but he's a quality player.

Especially when Super Rugby moves to 23 man teams next season, having a good stable of props will be even more critical. He's coming into the prime age for a prop and I'd prefer the Tahs to keep him than have to find someone else.

All he has to do is less lazy flops

 

[BPC]

I think a stronger 12 is needed in modern rugby. Beale's defence isn't great so I don't think playing him at 10 and Foley at 12 would be that good.

I think an inbetween player at 12 is ideal and your second playmaker at fullback works well.

Ideally I think you want someone like Tapuai, Lealiifano, or Barnes at 12 (and Godwin is quickly becoming a strong player as well) that are very strong defenders but also have some (or lots) of playmaking ability.

Your fullback is then the other player who can chime into the backline as an alternative first receiver (on the opposite side of the ruck to the 10) or can join the line wider out to help set up the outside backs.

I was a bit hesitant about putting Foley forward as 12. Although he plays fullback as well, I am not sure about his defensive capabilities at 12.

Deans favoured the second playmaker at fullback, when he used Panadol to come into the backline and set up plays. That may be a good reason to use a different approach!

 

[Intruder]

Great to have @SkeltonWilliam fill the last spot in our @NSWWaratahs squad. Good young talent. #bigshoestofill

Skelton to fill last EPS spot confirmed by captain Dave Dennis.