Waratahs 2020

[wamberal]

I assume that the Tahs should be primarily recruiting from local talent. Are there any "big, strong, hard-hitting forwards" in the Shute Shield?


The only one that I can think of is Pat Sio. Swinton used to look big and strong in the SS. He is not exactly dominating the exchanges now.


Incidentally, Eastwood's young hooker Ed Craig is heading north to the Reds for four weeks as injury cover. Good young prospect.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Well the four years of Gibson has really continued with the Tahs. So many players signed up that needed to be moved on like Newsome. Still the rubbish pack that is too light and heartless that he loved so much. But again apparently there were none available.

So many players left and little was done to replace them. WHY???

Tahs management (The ones that kept giving Gibson contract extensions and recruitment powers) needed to take a look at the Tahs failures and players that were leaving a look to strengthen but nothing. Blind Freddie could see that the Tahs needed to recruit big strong hard hitting forwards but nothing.

Long season ahead.

Waiting for the excuses.

I don't have a problem with Newsome as part of the Tahs squad but he definiitely should not be starting and on current form not sure if should even be in the 23 as Maddocks should start ahead of him with Clark on the bench.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Well the four years of Gibson has really continued with the Tahs. So many players signed up that needed to be moved on like Newsome. Still the rubbish pack that is too light and heartless that he loved so much. But again apparently there were none available.

So many players left and little was done to replace them. WHY???

Tahs management (The ones that kept giving Gibson contract extensions and recruitment powers) needed to take a look at the Tahs failures and players that were leaving a look to strengthen but nothing. Blind Freddie could see that the Tahs needed to recruit big strong hard hitting forwards but nothing.

Long season ahead.

Waiting for the excuses.

Sack Phil Bailey

Bit too early to be sacking Phil Bailey - deserves more time to see if Tahs can come good - he may be trying to implement new defensive structures which are not being executed well. Will give him time but at this rate yes unless improvement he should be looking for new employment next season. Can't say attack coach is shining at the moment either though

 

[Jimmyjam]

Unfortunately this squad has been disastrously mismanaged since Cheika left.. The recruitment decisions have been abysmal and reflect very badly on the management to date…
For ‘no clue Gibson’ and Hore to completely cock up the roster and then bail out once the damage was done was criminal.. It’s hard to not believe this wasn’t sabotage from within but I’ll go with moronic incompetence unless proven otherwise..
Feel sorry for the new coaches and to a point the players but this current squad, primarily the forwards are just not super rugby quality. To not go on a massive recruitment drive for test quality replacements when it was commonly known we’d be losing international players like Kepu, Latu, Phipps, Foley, Rona, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Folau is incomprehensible!
Then compounding the damage by recently recruiting unwanted journeymen like Rob Simmons, Staniforth and Faulkner… giving 3 yr contracts to barely Shute shield standard players like lock Ryan McCauley, prop Cody Walker is beyond belief. K Hunt who was one of our better recruits was a bloody accident! We should have picked up Slipper but somehow he was allowed to go to the Brumbies where he is only bench cover….
Our starting forward pack (aside from Hooper) has not 1 international standard, starting quality player in the squad, not even close. Our locks are not even Super rugby starting quality… Simmons, Staniforth, Holloway, McCauley. No super rugby standard hookers in the entire squad. Back row is reasonably strong but once again we lack a big ball carrier to hit the line hard. The backline could be ok, but our tight five quality will ensure we struggle to win scrums and I predict our gain-line success will be under 50% every week.
I’m a big believer in giving youth a chance, but we now have recent U20’s players replacing Test veterans. (I think I heard on Saturdays broadcast that we've lost over 550 test caps from last years team). We couldn’t make the finals with a much stronger roster last year, this year we are a decent bet for the spoon… a battle between us and the Rebels I’d guess….
This will take years to repair…
Look at the kind of forward pack it takes to win in Super Rugby the 2014 pack compared to Saturday night…
Kepu vs HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
TPN/Lotu vs Abel/ Fitzpatrick
Robinson vs Robertson
Douglas/Skelton vs Simmons/McCauley
Potgeiter vs Staniforth
Dennis vs Swinton
Hooper Hooper
Palu vs Dempsey
Absolute chalk and cheese. I can only imagine what Hooper is thinking when he looks around the dressing room at his forward pack seeing this lot compared to recent years. A bloody tragedy.

 

[Rebelsfan]

No offence Jimmyjam, but the Tahs forward pack didn't perform so well in the past either, if Hooper really is looking around the dressing room at his new forward pack maybe he has some hope for success - although, the last two games would put that to bed I'd say

 

[Jimmyjam]

No offence Jimmyjam, but the Tahs forward pack didn't perform so well in the past either, if Hooper really is looking around the dressing room at his new forward pack maybe he has some hope for success - although, the last two games would put that to bed I'd say

I was more comparing the current crop to the kind of forward pack you need to win or compete with the best at Super Rugby level. Unfortunately very aware of the forwards under-performance recently

 

[barbarian]

Yeah it's depressing to think we've gone from a dominant franchise to cellar-dwellers in just five years.

It's happened before elsewhere (Reds, Blues, Chiefs) but it's still tough to see. With the quality of players we had we should have made at least one more GF, and a few more semi-finals.

 

[Wilson]

Yeah it's depressing to think we've gone from a dominant franchise to cellar-dwellers in just five years.

It's happened before elsewhere (Reds, Blues, Chiefs) but it's still tough to see. With the quality of players we had we should have made at least one more GF, and a few more semi-finals.

I think the quick success is a bit of a curse these days, it certainly was for the reds and tahs. Winning the comp drives up the value of the players (as it does in any sport) but the money just isn't there to keep them around, particularly when the results are achieved so quickly and so many are looking for a raise at once.

For a side like the crusaders with such a good pipeline of talent it's fine, they'll always be there and there abouts, but for the sides that rise up so quickly there hasn't been time to build up the talent coming through. Then it all gets compounded by the weakness of Super Rugby (in economic terms) compared to France, England and Japan, where the ratio of broadcast dollars to quality of player makes it so much easier to poach and retain talent, even after success pushes their salaries upwards.

 

[barbarian]

I also think losing Cheika when we did was a hammer blow. He could have stayed for 3-5 more years and we could have had a settled, experienced team with good prospects coming through. But replacing him with Gibson was probably the catalyst for our downfall.

 

[Jimmyjam]

So who should the Tahs have gone all-out recruiting?? All of these guys could have been picked up prior to going o/s or to another franchise... (All NSW players, all were ignored, signed elsewhere or let go....) I know it's wonderful to look back with hindsight etc but I'm just making the point that the cards could have fallen differently with some more competent recruitment decisions....

Lukhan Salakaia-Loto
Nick Frost
Ben Gunter
Rahboni Warren-Vosayaco
Michael Ala'alatoa
Folau Fainga'a
Matt Philip
Taqele Naiyaravoro - (should have thrown the cheque book at this bloke to stay.)
Brandon Paenga-Amosa

So the Tahs 23 could have been looking like this...

Starting

Robertson
Fainga'a
AAA
LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto)
Philip
Gunter
Hooper
Dempsey
Gordon
Harrison
Taqele N
Beale
Hunt
Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase)
Maddocks

Reserves

Bell
BPA
HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)
Frost
RWV
McDonald
Foketi
Moarae

 

[Blackadder]

Unfortunately this squad has been disastrously mismanaged since Cheika left.. The recruitment decisions have been abysmal and reflect very badly on the management to date…

For ‘no clue Gibson’ and Hore to completely cock up the roster and then bail out once the damage was done was criminal.. It’s hard to not believe this wasn’t sabotage from within but I’ll go with moronic incompetence unless proven otherwise..

Feel sorry for the new coaches and to a point the players but this current squad, primarily the forwards are just not super rugby quality. To not go on a massive recruitment drive for test quality replacements when it was commonly known we’d be losing international players like Kepu, Latu, Phipps, Foley, Rona, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Folau is incomprehensible!

Then compounding the damage by recently recruiting unwanted journeymen like Rob Simmons, Staniforth and Faulkner… giving 3 yr contracts to barely Shute shield standard players like lock Ryan McCauley, prop Cody Walker is beyond belief. K Hunt who was one of our better recruits was a bloody accident! We should have picked up Slipper but somehow he was allowed to go to the Brumbies where he is only bench cover….

Our starting forward pack (aside from Hooper) has not 1 international standard, starting quality player in the squad, not even close. Our locks are not even Super rugby starting quality… Simmons, Staniforth, Holloway, McCauley. No super rugby standard hookers in the entire squad. Back row is reasonably strong but once again we lack a big ball carrier to hit the line hard. The backline could be ok, but our tight five quality will ensure we struggle to win scrums and I predict our gain-line success will be under 50% every week.

I’m a big believer in giving youth a chance, but we now have recent U20’s players replacing Test veterans. (I think I heard on Saturdays broadcast that we've lost over 550 test caps from last years team). We couldn’t make the finals with a much stronger roster last year, this year we are a decent bet for the spoon… a battle between us and the Rebels I’d guess….

This will take years to repair…

Look at the kind of forward pack it takes to win in Super Rugby the 2014 pack compared to Saturday night…

Kepu vs HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)

TPN/Lotu vs Abel/ Fitzpatrick

Robinson vs Robertson

Douglas/Skelton vs Simmons/McCauley

Potgeiter vs Staniforth

Dennis vs Swinton

Hooper Hooper

Palu vs Dempsey

Absolute chalk and cheese. I can only imagine what Hooper is thinking when he looks around the dressing room at his forward pack seeing this lot compared to recent years. A bloody tragedy.

1000000% correct. Gibson should have been sacked at the end of 2017 when the Force thrashed the Tahs. He was worse than rubbish as a coach, recruiter and motivator. The light and mobile pack NEVER worked. His game plan failed unless Big T or Folau made a break and carried Gibson.

Then he signed up players that aren't up to it and ran off.

Tahs management should not have kept signing him and taken recruitment off him

 

[Blackadder]

Bit too early to be sacking Phil Bailey - deserves more time to see if Tahs can come good - he may be trying to implement new defensive structures which are not being executed well. Will give him time but at this rate yes unless improvement he should be looking for new employment next season. Can't say attack coach is shining at the moment either though

Worse defence in comp. Blue wall gone.

Simply don't change what works

 

[Blackadder]

https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/...p/news-story/7980de801f29c22a60e552fa8c519a79

 

[eastman]

So who should the Tahs have gone all-out recruiting?? All of these guys could have been picked up prior to going o/s or to another franchise. (All NSW players, all were ignored, signed elsewhere or let go..) I know it's wonderful to look back with hindsight etc but I'm just making the point that the cards could have fallen differently with some more competent recruitment decisions..



Lukhan Salakaia-Loto

Nick Frost

Ben Gunter

Rahboni Warren-Vosayaco

Michael Ala'alatoa

Folau Fainga'a

Matt Philip

Taqele Naiyaravoro - (should have thrown the cheque book at this bloke to stay.)

Brandon Paenga-Amosa



So the Tahs 23 could have been looking like this.



Starting



Robertson

Fainga'a

AAA

LSL (Lukhan Salakaia-Loto)

Philip

Gunter

Hooper

Dempsey

Gordon

Harrison

Taqele N

Beale

Hunt

Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase)

Maddocks



Reserves



Bell

BPA

HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes)

Frost

RWV

McDonald

Foketi

Moarae

A lot of this is rubbish and completely out of context. The reason that players like Fainga'a were not recruited was because at the time we had better players available (e.g. TPN, Tolu Latu with Damien Fitzpatrick). You can argue that we should have thrown the cheque book at someone like AAA but is that value for money when they would have spent the first 3 years of their career struggling to make the match squad.
Also some of the players (Gunter and Vasayaco) were not the absolute standouts at their age, so its not surprising they weren't recruited, neither would they make material differences to the squad.
It's obvious we have made very specific recruitment mistakes over the last three years but i don't think this proposed squad really addresses it.

 

[Jimmyjam]

A lot of this is rubbish and completely out of context. The reason that players like Fainga'a were not recruited was because at the time we had better players available (e.g. TPN, Tolu Latu with Damien Fitzpatrick). You can argue that we should have thrown the cheque book at someone like AAA but is that value for money when they would have spent the first 3 years of their career struggling to make the match squad.
Also some of the players (Gunter and Vasayaco) were not the absolute standouts at their age, so its not surprising they weren't recruited, neither would they make material differences to the squad.
It's obvious we have made very specific recruitment mistakes over the last three years but i don't think this proposed squad really addresses it.

I guess you missed this part of the post.....

I know it's wonderful to look back with hindsight etc but I'm just making the point that the cards could have fallen differently with some more competent recruitment decisions..

 

[eastman]

The point was that they weren't necessarily incompetent decisions at the time.

 

[fatprop]

Our beloved attack leader

 

[Brumby Runner]

I also think losing Cheika when we did was a hammer blow. He could have stayed for 3-5 more years and we could have had a settled, experienced team with good prospects coming through. But replacing him with Gibson was probably the catalyst for our downfall.

Whew Barb, initially thought you were referring to the Wallabies, not the Tahs.

 

[Drew]

I have faith that Penney will make the hard decisions and turn it around. Let the 5/8th play, don’t have Beale and hunt over ruling him all the time. Get the second row to push hard at scrum time. Have a few players on the team who can bend the line. Moroa seemed to do that comfortably. Need a second rower or number 6 or 8 who can do that too. Get Marky Mark (Nawaqanitawase) having the same amount of touches in the final 20 minutes from the bench as he seems to have all game. Teach him to hit and drive in defence.

 

[Blackadder]

https://www.rugby.com.au/news/2020/02/10/super-rugby-waratahs-offloads