Waratahs v Stormers, rd 13 Super Rugby 2013

[PaarlBok]

Go and watch the first few minutes of the last Lions tour to SA (If I recall the occassion correctly) and have a look at the eye gouge - for which he was cited - and then. just have a look at the rest of his career. please do not pretend you are unaware of this - it serves you no credit - the rest of the rugby world are very well aware, and he is called on it during games often enough even for you to notice it.

correction - that Lions incident was the first few minutes of the 2nd test - i think he got 8 weeks for that little bit of work.

I agree on the Lions brain fart he had. No reason to call him a cheap shot mechant because of one incident. Schalk always play on the thin line Boet, you just dont know the differense. Etsebeth is a tough laaitie and do the same. He wont back off when the going gets tough specially when he see small players like Appels/de Jongh get shoved and push around by bigger players. You are just to one eyed to notice where the shite starts, if you want to throw you need some catching to do.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Its not one incident, there was another eye incident with Pocock, the coathanger on Carlos Spencer, the squirrel grip on George Smith, numerous numerous head high tackles, punching players in rucks - (often when they likely cannot even see who is hitting them), and constant incidents off the ball...

Look my friend, (to coin a south african phrase), I am not here to convince you - couldn't really give a bugger what you think of him... it has been there throughout his career for all to see - Bakkies Botha is another, as was Corne Krige, as was Bismarck du Plessis ... people with a more encyclopedic knowledge of rugby could go on and on on that subject....

The worst cheap shot i have ever seen was probably that AB grub Richard Loe king-hitting Paul Carozza after a try in a Test many years ago - the most cowardly was probably Bakkies Bothas headbut on Jimmy Cowan - but the eye gouge by Schalk Burger was right up there - and posibly the most dangerous of the 3... His comments after the fact spoke volumes about his attitude.

I am not saying he is the Only one - he was not, but to pretend you are somehow indignant that people recognise this aspect of his play is laughable...

 

[Blue]

Eben has a bit of a temper on him, that's for sure. By and large he seems to control it. He will get better at it as he gets older. Cheap shot merchant? I don't think there is enough evidence to call him that. A bit of a hot head yes.

You seem to have a real Saffer hate issue there Hell West & Upthegumtree. That's okay, sometimes I don't like us either, but I hope this conversation thoroughly fucks up your day. Just keep your sense of humour and she'll be apples.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Eben has a bit of a temper on him, that's for sure. By and large he seems to control it. He will get better at it as he gets older. Cheap shot merchant? I don't think there is enough evidence to call him that. A bit of a hot head yes.

You seem to have a real Saffer hate issue there Hell West & Upthegumtree. That's okay, sometimes I don't like us either, but I hope this conversation thoroughly fucks up your day. Just keep your sense of humour and she'll be apples.

Its a noble aspiration - but highly unlikely... Saffer hating? No - I think Clyde Rathbone and Tiaan Strauss are Top Blokes.

As for Eben, he is young and yet to fully mature as a rugby player - so we will see what we will see... - but I think he has already gone once for an attempted headbut off the ball, yes? anyhow... time will tell. I hope I am proven wrong.

 

[PaarlBok]

Its a noble aspiration - but highly unlikely. Saffer hating? No - I think Clyde Rathbone and Tiaan Strauss are Top Blokes.

As for Eben, he is young and yet to fully mature as a rugby player - so we will see what we will see. - but I think he has already gone once for an attempted headbut off the ball, yes? anyhow. time will tell. I hope I am proven wrong.

See there you go again. I know Eben from a long way and he sure can head butt, its in his roots, two Ooms SA Wrestlers and not the type you wanted to get stuck in. He play the hard way and he wont back down when after play incidents happens like that one incident you described, your player asked to be head butted and nearly got it.

 

[cyclopath]

Alright guys, let's leave this conversation there. It's going nowhere good. I doubt either will change the other's mind, so best to move on.

 

[Lindommer]

If you are going to insult people have the decency to check the spelling of their names.

No - I would need to respect him to bother with the spell check - I don't.

HWC, I strongly suggest you do. And that goes for those whom you don't insult as well, getting peoples' names wrong is very insulting, especially if you like them.

Spell check for a person's name? Get a grip, son.

 

[Rassie]

Alright guys, let's leave this conversation there. It's going nowhere good. I doubt either will change the other's mind, so best to move on.

I I may just add something. Its nothing fueling to the conversation and if you it might do please feel free to delete it.

First off all rugby is a physical game. Forwards have to be physical as its very hard at the highest level and you will not your big bruising ball carriers and the guys doing all the dirty work needs that physicality. You get guys who gives a 100 percent at doing anything for that full 80 minutes. Yes sometimes they might do something wrong but it goes both ways. If you have to receive you have to give a bit. Players who play borderline do not go around knocking people over in a ruck when a ball is out and in the wings hands already. They do it contesting over the ball. Every forward do silly things its just some get caught some don't but I think anyone who ever played rugby knows what goes on in a ruck, maul or scrum when 16 psyched up testosterone filled monsters all go out committed fighting over a single ball for glory. Its not going to be beautiful and its not going to be for anyone with plays with fear.

Sometimes they might get pushed over the edge but sad thing is that in rugby the people who started everything gets away with it and go unpunished. So they will keep on doing it till its stopped one day. But no one can point fingers at any one as they all do it. Its just our bias views that makes something more out of it than it actually should. This a piece from a SA musician that he wrote about Bakkies Botha. Think it hits the nail on the head

God knows, we need more people like Bakkies Botha. In politics, in public life, everywhere. Even if he is suffering from a shoulder injury.

Why? Well, Bakkies Botha is a man of few words. He has never written a book. He never makes speeches. He is the kind of guy who never seeks the limelight, he just donners into the scrum — or the loose maul, or whatever you call the tangle of bodies that periodically piles up on any rugby field — and does his job. Unseen, unheard, he dives into that grizzly pile of swearing and sweat, where he throws his punches, where he scratches and claws and works his silent way towards Springbok victory.

He never towers high in the line-outs like Victor Matfield. He hardly ever joins the back-line to pretend to be a centre like Juan Smith. He never graces the front page of magazines like Percy Montgomery or Francois Steyn. He isn’t pretty, or charming, or suave, or sexy, or cool. He is simply Bakkies Botha. He has absolutely no other baggage to carry in life besides being himself. He has the common touch.

http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/koos...-unbearable-lightness-of-being-bakkies-botha/

 

[Langthorne]

The interesting thing with these guys is that when they just play the game without bothering with the cheap/dirty/stupid stuff, they are amazingly good at it - Burger and Botha at their best were the best.

 

[FrankLind]

Rassie, Bakkies Botha is a good player. And clearly you love him. I think there are better role models in SA rugby than him. (NZ has also had a few disgraces)
2 of Bakkies Botha's -greatest "hits"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=oYJ5PEuYRO0&NR=1

 

[PaarlBok]

The interesting thing with these guys is that when they just play the game without bothering with the cheap/dirty/stupid stuff, they are amazingly good at it - Burger and Botha at their best were the best.

Very true. I still wont place Schalkie in the Bakkies mould, much less brain farts. He do play his rugby full out, full blast. Hopefull we havent saw the last of him on the rugby pitch.

 

[Rassie]

The interesting thing with these guys is that when they just play the game without bothering with the cheap/dirty/stupid stuff, they are amazingly good at it - Burger and Botha at their best were the best.

But without that part they are not worth much. Why do teams use them? Rugby is a physical game and part of the physicality is intimidation. The fear of injury. Someone saying listen here mate you are going to try and spoil our ball I am going to hurt you. And they go into that ruck 100 percent all the time giving all. They do not run around off the ball trying to hurt people. You will find them on the ball. I can tell you in rugby you don't run around trying to punch someones face in. They normally try to dish out what they received. That is Bakkies. Look at the one test where Thorn got a piece of him. What did Bakkies do? He begged the ref not to card Thorn and let him stay on the pitch. Why because he enjoys the challenge and he knows what you dish out you must receive.

Yes they do the sill headbutt but really how many arguments have we seen blatant cheating infront of the officials not getting punished? The ref and the officils should take as much blame as the guy doing the headbut cause they could avoided a pice of foul play if they acted on the first piece of foul play eg like holding a guy back.

The Gio APlon incident. Really look at the Stormers prop did the same to Bakkies. I guarantee you if it was 78kgs of Gio Aplon doing the same to Bakkies then it wouldn't have been an issue. Reminds me of the old days and why backs stayed out of rucks. Due to that.

The Adam Jones incident there was nothing wrong with it. Jones was over the ball sealing it off Bakkies went in cleared him out like every other player did in the time of rugby. Unfortunately Jones got hurt but thats rugby. Jones himself said it was nothing wrong with it.

The reason for All Black dominance... violence... no other team except the Springboks have set out to physically intimidate New Zealand. The French have been able to occasionally and the Australians try, but all other teams tacitly admit physical defeat before the match starts. They are not tough enough, and not violent enough. . .

Botha monstering Shane WIlliams and check what it leads to

 

[FrankLind]

The reason for All Black dominance. violence. no other team except the Springboks have set out to physically intimidate New Zealand. The French have been able to occasionally and the Australians try, but all other teams tacitly admit physical defeat before the match starts. They are not tough enough, and not violent enough.

Is that you Bakkies?

The reason for AB dominance is not violence. It is a mixture of good coaching, skilful players, hard forwards etc.

Ridiculous post.

 

[Rassie]

Is that you Bakkies?

The reason for AB dominance is not violence. It is a mixture of good coaching, skilful players, hard forwards etc.

Ridiculous post.

Note "physical defeat" You won't beat a AB team without beating them at the collisions. Rugby is part intimidation part physical part skill sets. Without the physical part and doing the hard work and getting the ball you can't show of your skill sets. Without intimidation your never going to win a physical battle. England alone intimidated teams by making Johnson their captain to scare the bejesus out of the opposition captains.

 

[Pfitzy]

Yeah but there is "winning the collisions" and then there is "biting"

 

[Rassie]

Yeah but there is "winning the collisions" and then there is "biting"

If you do not know what hovers at the bottom of the Piet van Zyl referee tackling; the Johan le Roux ear biting; the Bakkies Botha head butting and the Dean Greyling forearm smashing incidents then I am afraid you truly do not understand the NZ and SA rivalry. Sadly to the current generation of supporters won't get it because no one care to look up history. If they did we wouldn't have these arguments about it.

 

[Sully]

So you think all those actions were justified?

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[Rassie]

Is that you Bakkies?

The reason for AB dominance is not violence. It is a mixture of good coaching, skilful players, hard forwards etc.

Ridiculous post.

1956 - First test SA ending up playing with 13 men on their side and NZ 14. As you can see Rugby union is a violent sport.

Spiro Zavos writes: “On a day when the wind was as direct and strong as a right-arm jab, the Springboks broke the All Blacks in the forwards into the wind, then, in the second half, smashed around the short side of the lineout twice to score the tries that won the game. This was the hardest game of rugby I’d ever seen. Players indulged in fist fights from the first scrum. In one memorable set-to, Dixon and Johnstone had a personal duel, oblivious to the play that carried on further down the paddock. That was the tone of the game and the series; nasty, hard and vicious.”

I can go on show you pictures of Kiwi's and SOuth Africans and the battle scars of it from 1921 right through to today. Violence do not refer to beating each other to a pulp like something you will see in prison yard. In rugby it refers to hard and bruising.

Terry McLean writes:

The Springboks had but lately decided among themselves that all New Zealand sides play rough Rugby and that they must retaliate in self-defence; two Press photographers standing on the touchline at Masterton had expressed astonishment at some Springbok methods in that match and were told by Kirkpatrick that, in effect, “We have had enough; now we are going to get stuck in”; and it was Kirkpatrick who, as the film so graphically showed, barely restrained himself from a full-bloodied kick at White after the latter had tackled him.

That above philosophy is still used today. As either get bullied or bully back. Both sides know that both use that.

 

[Rassie]

So you think all those actions were justified?

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I am going to try and explain this as best I can cause its hard to explain something to someone who grew up in a different culture about why there is a instant hatred or reaction to certain things.

What is the one incident in sport which Aussies never forget and will almost be part of the culture getting passed over by generation to generation and if something similar reoccur the whole of Australia of instantly agree or understand why the reaction over it.

First of all the following I am not making accusations or pointing fingers. I am just using it to explain it better. What is the accusations around Richie McCaw and some other Kiwi players in the modern game by the opposition?

 

[Lindommer]

Rassie, this "bash or be bashed" attitude belongs to days past, and good riddance I say. Players today can't get away with the physical violence you espouse, the proliferation of cameras and modern media reporting have put paid to it. And that's before citing commissioners and judiciaries have their say.

If I have a choice of watching organised thuggery or hard, skilful rugby I'll take the second option every time. If you enjoy mindless physical attacks by one person on another maybe you should consider following ultimate fighting, or professional wrestling.