Where to for Super Rugby?

[I like to watch]

Who actually manages all this?

Well, that's sums up the problem.
Those that can make those decisions, don't want to, either because of self interest, or that because of their narrow focus, can't see the problems in front of them.

As an aside, the ARL commission set up only a few years ago is a,ready a mess.
Head honcho John Grant, announced funding cuts to the clubs last year, and ever since has changed his viewpoint to whatever it needs to be to hang on to his role.
He was successful,independent, but is now powerless and a pawn willing to do anything to continue.
It's a tough gig being an administrator!

 

[joeyjohnz]

I'd go the Big Bash model and introduce two teams in the two biggest markets for the sake of derbies. Say Western Sydney and QLD Souf.

It was only a year ago that a bunch of numpties around Australia (and here) wanted the Force based out of Western Sydney. All because the Waratah's have, and will never cross ANZAC Parade. The Waratahs brand can only be strengthened by a cross-town rival.

The two expansion teams can be semi-professional at least. Pocock & Folau's salary this year could pay 2 semi-professional squads of 30 $40k each....

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Have our super rugby over 15 or so rounds, ditch the NRC (love the NRC btw) for an actual national competition involving our actual teams + Fiji. 10 round competition + final. We need a national champion, so why not let the Brumbies/Reds whoever have a chance to be that. We are screaming out for success within our teams, what better success than to be called 'national' champions. It's simple, this would give the Tahs/Force/Rebels something to build towards if they are experiencing horrendous Super campaigns, and for the 2 teams in the final, we would quickly forget how dross they were in their Super Campaigns. Its guaranteed success for a team + it provides more content for our super teams and fans more of a chance to build an affiliation with them. We all saw what the NRC win did for Perth last year, imagine if that was actually the Force brand instead, its just a marketing opportunity thrown down the drain

Don't see this as viable short term. Hence have nrc semi pro long form and say 3 to 4 teams in super rugby to retain our pro.S.

Eventually when semi pro grows and develops perhaps could morph into pro comp and replace super rugby...

Baby steps. Unless rich benefactor no one going to bankroll fully professional national domestic competition at this point.

Your proposal will bankrupt oz Rugby...Baby steps

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[Sauron]

Raelene Castle for CEO? Just resigned from the Doggies.

 

[Rebels3]

Don't see this as viable short term. Hence have nrc semi pro long form and say 3 to 4 teams in super rugby to retain our pro.S.

Eventually when semi pro grows and develops perhaps could morph into pro comp and replace super rugby.

Baby steps. Unless rich benefactor no one going to bankroll fully professional national domestic competition at this point.

Your proposal will bankrupt oz Rugby.Baby steps

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Its the same competition as the NRC, except we are using our teams instead of creating new entities like the NRC does. It'd still be the same telecast production value the NRC gets, still the same guys playing (minus 1/2 teams), it'd still be played at the same venues. The upside is Fox would have the Super team brands to actually play with, fans would have the chance to engage with their teams more and the players would still have a 3rd tier.


There'd be no salaries involved as the vast majority of the players participating are already under contract.

Viewership wise, people would rather watch Brumbies v Reds than Vikings v Brisbane City.

Sponsorship wise, sponsors are getting more for their buck as they are affiliated with more content, which could mean teams could ask for more from it.

When it comes to grounds and fixtures, it would give the Tahs an opportunity to play games in Western Sydney, the Reds could play out of Ballymoore and the Brumbies etc could take a few games to Tamworth etc, engaging with these fans with the real teams (Tahs v Rebels) instead of Stars v Rising.

Imagine the following games

Reds v Tahs at Ballymoore
Tahs v Fiji in Parramatta
Brumbies v Tahs in Tamworth
Rebels v Force in Frankston
Reds v Fiji on the Gold Coast

Instead for the same financial value we are getting

Brisbane City v Stars at Ballymoore
Western Sydney Rams v Fiji in Parramatta
Vikings v Eagles in Tamworth
Rising v Spirit in Frankston
QLD Country v Fiji on the Gold Coast

for the same money! Lets remember the same players are playing in the competition, mostly contracted to their super clubs already. Fox sports is already driving their equipment to the same venues and spending the same money on production values. If anything it'd save teams money by not having to create new entities which aren't enhancing their brands. Children aren't getting excited about the Stars v Spirit but if the Tahs and Force came to town, that'd create a lot of commotion in some of these towns. "The Waratahs actually came to town and played a match", not the Country Eagles but the Waratahs.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Your proposal will bankrupt oz Rugby.Baby steps

Going to happen in the medium term anyway isn't it?


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[WorkingClassRugger]

Its the same competition as the NRC, except we are using our teams instead of creating new entities like the NRC does. It'd still be the same telecast production value the NRC gets, still the same guys playing (minus 1/2 teams), it'd still be played at the same venues. The upside is Fox would have the Super team brands to actually play with, fans would have the chance to engage with their teams more and the players would still have a 3rd tier.


There'd be no salaries involved as the vast majority of the players participating are already under contract.

Viewership wise, people would rather watch Brumbies v Reds than Vikings v Brisbane City.

Sponsorship wise, sponsors are getting more for their buck as they are affiliated with more content, which could mean teams could ask for more from it.

When it comes to grounds and fixtures, it would give the Tahs an opportunity to play games in Western Sydney, the Reds could play out of Ballymoore and the Brumbies etc could take a few games to Tamworth etc, engaging with these fans with the real teams (Tahs v Rebels) instead of Stars v Rising.

Imagine the following games

Reds v Tahs at Ballymoore
Tahs v Fiji in Parramatta
Brumbies v Tahs in Tamworth
Rebels v Force in Frankston
Reds v Fiji on the Gold Coast

Instead for the same financial value we are getting

Brisbane City v Stars at Ballymoore
Western Sydney Rams v Fiji in Parramatta
Vikings v Eagles in Tamworth
Rising v Spirit in Frankston
QLD Country v Fiji on the Gold Coast

for the same money! Lets remember the same players are playing in the competition, mostly contracted to their super clubs already. Fox sports is already driving their equipment to the same venues and spending the same money on production values. If anything it'd save teams money by not having to create new entities which aren't enhancing their brands. Children aren't getting excited about the Stars v Spirit but if the Tahs and Force came to town, that'd create a lot of commotion in some of these towns. "The Waratahs actually came to town and played a match", not the Country Eagles but the Waratahs.

I'd be cool with using the franchise names as long as they also keep both the Country squads. There needs to be a balance between the ability to carry over branding and providing opportunity to new players. There's no reason as far as I can envision why both squads in NSW and QLD couldn't be run out of the same facilities.

 

[wamberal]

To answer my own question, about the ways and means of getting us somewhere better than we are now, it is pretty obvious that, one way or the other, Pulver will go.


I think most, if not all, serious followers of the game accept that we are in need of some sort of drastic action. The only way that will happen is if an Executive Chairperson is appointed by the ARU, and all the affiliated bodies accept that he or she has the powers of a US style Commissioner.


There is no way that we are going to hew out a viable future for the code in Australia and keep all the stakeholders happy at the same time. Cannot be done.


I have put forward some thoughts about possible scenarios, in the full knowledge that they are all distasteful to one sizeable segment of the game or more than one. Perhaps even to a majority.


So what. When a patient is in the ICU only one thing matters. Save his or her life. Do whatever short term damage is necessary, take whatever risks seem worth taking.


There are a lot of questions that we could all ask, about the game and its way forward, but it is going to take a special blend of guts, flair, and willingness to take risks and upset sectional interests, to save this patient. I have been around too long not to know what a crisis is, we are now in a crisis for sure.


The really worrying thing to me is, why would somebody who is good enough to do this job, want to take it on? It would not pay well, in comparison to market alternatives, and it would be a bugger to live through. Survival is not guaranteed, let alone success.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Who actually manages all this?

You and me

 

[half]

@Half

I like to think that I listen and will shift an opinion with reasonable argument and evidence. I've gone on this forum from being parodied as an ARU apologist to at least what seems from a few here as unsreasonable ARU hater.

WRT Soup, I longer accept that it offers something suitable for Australian rugby. That I'll admit, is not exactly the same as thinking "it is obvious that we need to go domestic" - though its probably splitting hairs.

WRT to football, my (local) team in England was the (Reading) Royals. Went to maybe half their home games and a rew away. I have a reasonable understanding of Football tribalism. My wife liked it for the crowd more than the sport. The sense of community is palpable. It can also veer to aweful evil stuff that in Europe is sometimes only a paper-thin edge away.

WRT FFA I actually have ZIP interest. I tend to at best fast scan your posts when they wander to FFA. Its not a matter of disrespect, just simple interest.

Back on a domestic comp. i still have reservations with how Begg/Papworth etc will handle whatever happens. They have shown an ability to rebel but in my mind not yet have we seen what they would do to lock in this tribalism. Right now though, I'll take Pap and Begg over Pulver (who I actually like) and Clynne. Hands down. And I'll be buried with the consequences. If thats the result.

We cant do Soup as offered and maintain a National footprint. I'm going to keep on this because it is fundamental. If they find a way to offer something that works lets reconsider. But right now there are few alternatives being discussed that to me have any reality - and all of them imo feature a domestic comp.

You boys shouting about tribalism from the SS, very good. I do like the sense of community it brings. I'm very probably going to be with you next season if Clynne continues his s orched earth policy. Let the SS sort out how they work SS teams into a National comp. that wont be easy. They didnt like how it was rushed through with NRC. OK, actually tell us what would be better.

As a final caution. If Begg, Papworth, Dwyer, Poidevin, Jones etc, take this chance and screw the grass roots by focus on only SS clubs, my reaction will be exactly the same as it is right now for Soup.

How quickly I may fall. Soup to SS. SS to Subbies. Whatever. There will be rugby somewhere.

Thanks for your reply and I largely agree with your post.

I have since the late 90's wanted change and believed for years the answer was going to a national domestic competition. My belief at the time but is no longer my belief is the revenue short fall would be small and we could recover in the media deal that followed.

Why did I change on the revenue side because I see what is happening to FFA and more recently cricket.

Meaning while everything tells me to go local, however in doing so today would result in a massive revenue shortfall.

To me the question / questions we should be seeking from the ARU is to develop or seek help in determining how to generate revenue.

Essentially we or the ARU does not appear to have any idea how to create revenue streams and cost saving to Super clubs. This IMO is were our research should be going.

 

[p.Tah]

Dru & P.Tah

Love your thoughts on the following...............
What it SCREAMS at me is Australian people love their local side................
However what if the ARU became as inclusive as FFA IMO the outcomes would be mega.

Half,
(long winded - sorry everyone)
I played Club rugby and Subbies, to be totally honest I wasn’t really connected to the tribalism of the team at the time. I enjoyed playing for them, but they weren’t my local club and I didn’t have a history with them. As a kid I grew up in Western Sydney playing soccer and rugby league and had a vague idea what Union was but all I wanted to do was play in NSWRL (pre-NRL days) when I was older enough. The 1984 Grand Slam caught my attention and then the 1991 World Cup and I then started watching Shute Shield Games. Watching Campo play for Randwick drew me into the game. Year on year my love for the game has grown to a point where is now all consuming!

Based on my journey to finding the game, I do subscribe to the theory that if Wallabies (and now the Super rugby teams as well) are doing well then there is a positivity throughout the game that does flow onto the club and junior ranks. As has been widely discussed the problem we have is that NZ teams are beating us too often and its quite depressing and that too flows on down to the other levels. I understand the ARU rationale in regards to ‘shrinking to success’, but I just can’t support cutting a team because of the devastation it will do to the game in WA and/or VIC. Rugby has some of the wealthiest supporters and top business minds, how cutting a team is the only option is beyond me, but that’s for another discussion.

I’m now a Dad and all the kids except the baby, play rugby (boys and girls). I’ve become quite involved in the junior club and the local Shute Shield club has a link to the local junior clubs. As a result, I’ve re-engaged with club rugby in a much stronger way than I ever did when I played. Only issue is not all the kids play for the same club and their clubs are linked to different Shute Shield clubs! Anyway, not that long ago I was very anti-club rugby because of the demise of the ARC etc. Now I see it more clearly from both sides.

I’m not that familiar with FFA’s workings, but it sounds as though the FFA Cup has brought the grassroots game together and that’s something the ARU (and NSWRU) need to do better. We have to engage with the community. Spend time in NZ (especially outside Auckland and Wellington) and see how well the clubs at all levels engage with the community. The same occurs in Ireland, England, Wales the Borders region in Scotland and the Southern towns in France. In my view it needs to start with the kids in junior club rugby. Those clubs need to engage with all the local schools. Those clubs need to strongly linked to a Shute Shield club. At training and on game day the clubs banner with the logos of the Shute Shield Club, the State Super Rugby team and the Wallabies needs to be present. Kids need to see the pathway (not just for playing but for supporting). One of my daughters plays for a club that has the Shute Shield logo on her shorts. She gets very excited when she sees that logo at the Shute Shield game or on the TV. If it’s a nice Saturday afternoon some of the dads send a text out, need to gte the kids out of the house, taking them to the Shute Shield game. We meet up, have a beer, watch an interrupted game of rugby whilst the kids go nuts, but they love it. We’ve had Waratahs at the kids training recently, they were given tickets and many at the club went to the game that following weekend. There is an afternoon Wallabies test coming up. Tickets are a bit pricy but I’ll take some of the older ones. My channel into the game at all levels is through the kids these days, not everyone has kids, but rugby needs to find a way to engage the whole community.

I haven’t always been of this opinion, but now I wholeheartedly agree with you that people want to engage with their local side, if it’s on their radar! The local level needs better promotion and that should also come from the ARU down. The Tahs are getting better at it at their games and with their training visits to local clubs.


Build the base and the top with flourish, but the cutting a super rugby side to build this base isn’t what’s needed. In my view the grassroots level (in my case junior level) doesn’t need money, it needs more volunteers, it needs people to promote the game in schools, it needs someone to run the BBQ, run the water out during game, complete their coaching or referee course. I read posters talking about how strong grassroots was pre-professionalism. There was no money in the game at grassroot level, but it did well based on the work of volunteers. Those volunteers did it because it felt good, they were doing it for the good of the game, which was primarily their community.

We can’t shrink to success, we just need all hands on deck to support the game. The ARU need to galvanizing the community to engage with the game at all levels. Instead I feel they have lost sight of being the ‘custodians of the game’ by focusing on the business side too much. That side is obviously important, but we need to be pulling in the same direction. That’s the ARU’s job to direct that, unfortunately they haven’t achieved it, but they haven’t been helped with the various warring factions.

So I say to everyone, stop being self interested dickheads, look at the big picture, the future of the game’s success is at stake.

 

[wamberal]

And I have been asking myself, where is David Smith these days?


He was, after all, put forward to the NRL by John Mumm (Spencer Stuart). He has an army background, obviously a rugby man, has worked in international banking, and has an intimate knowledge of the Australian sporting landscape.


He was on a hiding to nothing when he took up the NRL job. But he did bring in a pretty good media deal, which is looking better and better as the medium term future unfolds (Roy Masters thinks so, and he is absolutely no dill).


Mumm of course has a significant rugby background, and he is the sort of person who would have to do an executive search to fill the ARU top job, sooner or later.


Smith would be my current pick. From a very small field of contenders, and it would not at all suprise me if he ended up in the role.

 

[half]

^^^^
p.Tah

Good nay excellent post and I, 98% agree.

The 2% I don't agree is where you said this should come from the ARU down.

What FFA did was spent nearly fours years listening and asking for how to set up their National Premier League & FFA Cup.

They asked everyone to tick off if they agreed and would take part.

Once everything was agree all FFA did was set up a structure by simply handing over to their state associations some very basic entry rules. For the NPL a club had to appoint a coaching director trained to a certain level and run teams from U 8 to U 16. For FFA Cup anyone club who was registered could play. Last year over 840 clubs entered.

So when agreed it set itself up within days, and all from a bottom up approach.

The viewing of these youtube and facebook matches is mind blowing and yes I accept many could be 10 second hits.

Australian love local. Example say Eastwood played a game against Bathurst. The interest in regional Australia of their local side up against the big smoke would be mega.

The ARU needs to lead the conversation and show how to enter and create the structures and trust the rugby community to pick up the ball and make it work. In essence thats all FFA did.

 

[Braveheart81]

The NRC has an entirely different purpose to the FFA Cup. They really couldn't be further apart.

I don't think an FFA Cup style event would work in rugby. Pitting teams of too different skill levels against each other in a full contact sport would be a disaster.

 

[half]

The NRC has an entirely different purpose to the FFA Cup. They really couldn't be further apart.

I don't think an FFA Cup style event would work in rugby. Pitting teams of too different skill levels against each other in a full contact sport would be a disaster.

FFA set up two things, they first set up a National Premier League and set entry rules, which included appointing a coaching director qualified to a certain level, establishing teams from U 8 to U 16, and access to a field.

They allocated to each state a certain number of places.

Having established these basic rules / structures they said to their state associations you decide who meets the requirements to full your states quota.

All up they have 100 teams spread across two divisions and each state has broken down their state into regions.

Each region plays in a weekly competition for and against.

The various state regional champions enter a knock out competition to see who is the state champion and then the state champions go into a knock out competition to determine who is the Australian champion club at the National Premier League level.

So weekly they are playing 50 matches at this level and starting to broadcast these matches locally.

Rugby could copy this today its just needs to be set up.

The FFA Cup I agree could not apply to rugby.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

And I have been asking myself, where is David Smith these days?

I thought the rugby league consensus was that he was a dud - surprised the ARU haven't signed if that's right

 

[dru]

So what's the easy answer? Your time starts now.



Tick. Tick. Tick...

Wamberal, this clock is for me?

Mate I have several times evinced my thoughts. Not a perfect solution, but repeated sufficiently that I suspect dont wish to hear it again. But as you ask so respectfully and in the absence of things such as sarcasm.

1. Veto SANZAAR immediately. 18 team comp for the originally obligated period to 2020.
2. Try to talk some sense into the S18 system and draw.
3. The Aus franchises on notice - ARU emergency funds will be scarce, survival of the fittest for two years.
4. ARU represented that Soup survival requires a cut to 3. Recognise those consequences now and plan for it.
5. I'm pretty certain that will fail the national footprint test. Not good enough, withdraw from Soup as it is currently to a domestic based comp.
6. This needs to be carried out respectfully and doing our best to retain our involvement with SANZAAR with the internationals. Tough I know, but that is Plan A.
7. Start informal negotiations on Plan B internationals in case the Kiwis really do knee jerk kick.
8. Domestic comp with the 5 teams plus some in Qld and NSW.
9. SRU invited to resolve with Waratah Ltd the number and identity of NSW teams.
10. Qld probably stick to the current NRC model, but QRU can resolve. EDIT: With QPRU
11. Fiji? Dont care, smarter minds to consider. Ditto Japan, but I'm happy for a bit with domestic.
12. End of domestic season SOO style comp. must be representational, not the top x number of teams.
13. We can do this with 5, 4, 3, or 2 teams. Lets say 3. Loosely Qld, NSW the the rest.
14. Like in NRL where the rep rules favoured Qld, here they should be skewed to "the rest". We want them with wins.
15. The WB coaching staff step up to coaching these SOO teams, along with pathways for possible future WB coaches. Systems follow what the WB coach wants. Period
16. In time if Soup morphs to a Champions League style thing, all of a sudden it may suit Australia again.

ARU needs bloodletting. The Arbib cookie cutter board is a total fail. I want my board thoroughly engaged with rugby and opinionated. Dont care if they have rugby masters. I would however like to see the end of the voting system that means nothing happens without NSW cardigans and QRU old boys.

There's more, but its a start. I have thoughts for Sydney/NSW too.

 

[kiap]

I thought the rugby league consensus was that he was a dud

He had the balls to get a $1.6 billion TV deal, knowing he would have to lose his own job over it because of Uncle Rupe.

But they got the record deal.

It's not the popular thing to say, but it turns out that recently departed NRL CEO Dave Smith may have in fact done a great job with the rights.​

He did a record free-to-air deal with the Nine Network in full knowledge that that would put him even further in the sights of News Corp. Their executive team were left red-faced when Rupert Murdoch lobbed into town to the news that Nine had sealed the rights.​

The result was some serious Smith bashing and a refusal to deal with him. Smith left – or was made to leave – before the deal was complete, but his decision to do things his own way brought the game a great deal.​

He knew his head would be lopped off for daring to buck convention, but he wasn't in the job to make friends. He departed without tears being shed, but he left the game in greater financial form than when he joined in 2013.​

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...hildren-in-refugee-camps-20151128-glah4d.html​

 

[oztimmay]

Not so great news for the RSC sponsorship of the Force. Government looking to review (read: likely scrap) the deal at the end of the year.

http://www.theage.com.au/rugby-unio...15-million-major-sponsor-20170525-gwd9ut.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Not so great news for the RSC sponsorship of the Force. Government looking to review (read: likely scrap) the deal at the end of the year.

http://www.theage.com.au/rugby-unio...15-million-major-sponsor-20170525-gwd9ut.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No where does it say they want to scrap it only that with the force being under the cloud they are atm they will look at it at the end of the year pretty sensible stuff. It's the police union that had its knickers in a twist.

The wa gov won't on one hand advocate for the force to remain and on the other withdraw sponsorship.