Where to for Super Rugby?

[WorkingClassRugger]

Thats great, someone else who understands how it works.

I also noticed today on the Roar, Geoff Parks is saying the Nobody Really Cares, competition looks like folding.

If this does occur it's something else I said would happen even before it was announced and have done so every year of its operation. Its not that I wanted it to fail, it was obvious to me for many many many reasons it would.

I mention this not to gloat or say 'I told you so", moreover to further illustrate that when you set up anything as ambitious as the NRC you need three things, Capital, Smarts, & to stick to you'or stated objectives. The NRC does not have the capital, has no real business smarts. but worst when from a duel objective i.e prepare players for higher honours and to grow and expand the game. Soon preparing players for higher honours dominated the thinking which IMO is beyond sad.

To my point, the now two failures [assuming Geoff Parks is right] of establishing a level below Super Rugby, and with Super Rugby in decline, maybe it's time for our own revolution and open the books to investors to take the risk and pay for the development of a national domestic competition. To do so requires a structure that IMO has some history, success and would work in the Australian sporting environment and as I said the MLS model is well worth considering.

If memory serves me correctly you are out Campbelltown way. If so you would more than likely see what & how at a local level the new team in the A-League is doing and how sad is it that the main backer and funder of this team is on record as saying he would have preferred to establish a rugby team.

Cheers, and I am quite pleased someone else understands how the MLS systems and structures work and understand its simply a model not an endorsement of US soccer.

I live in Camden which is close enough I guess. To be honest there's not a lot of excitement at the prospect of an A-League team out this way. At least not yet. Maybe as 2021 comes closer that will build. I don't think if the model is right that Laing Walker buying into the A-League excludes him from buying into Rugby. But the model would have to be right.

Another option could be an expansion of the Aus. Club Championship to be run post club season featuring the top 3-4 teams from both Sydney and Brisbane the top 2 from Canberra and a team from both Melbourne and Perth. Have the professionals run to their respective clubs if they are featuring in the championship and if not have them go into a draft (strictly in the state in which they are based. No cross country shenanigans) to be 'loaned' to the participating clubs. Single round robin for 9-11 games plus finals.

Would provide clubs with more revenue generating opportunities while tapping into the tribalism angle. Yes, clubs will miss out but at this point we have to aspect for us to ever achieve anything close to a national domestic league of note there's going to have to be winners and losers. Having three teams from Syd and Bris would mean you could have a 3 v 4 game to determine who participates which would give the something to play for.

This could lead to the talent accumulating in certain clubs but so be it. Hopefully it would get to the point where the clubs that 'win' in this scenario decide to expand on it to a double round robin while still running teams in their local competitions acting more a reserve grades.

 

[RugbyReg]

This may have been reported but NZRU sufered an almost $2M loss with an expected $30M cumulative defecit over the next 5 years.

https://ministryofsport.com.au/new-...LZUM94vXjwtjevXaW2k7HnKEBIVNZA&_hsmi=72156028

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

This may have been reported but NZRU sufered an almost $2M loss with an expected $30M cumulative defecit over the next 5 years.

https://ministryofsport.com.au/new-...LZUM94vXjwtjevXaW2k7HnKEBIVNZA&_hsmi=72156028

The model is clearly broken.

 

[Rebels3]

If the Chiefs start to bottom out, I think we could see conversations start to be had about them staying around in the current financial climate.

One of the biggest issues in the Southern Hemisphere is the continued want to keep professional the Currie Cup, NPC etc. and the impact these competitions have on limiting Super Rugby structures or vise versa Super Rugby impacting on the commercial viability of these comps. Ideally I don’t think you can have both as a professional competition, a time will come when I think it’ll have to be one or the other in a professional sense with the surviving structure expanding to reach its commercial potential.

 

[Quick Hands]

The model is clearly broken.

Only SANZAAR could run rugby into the ground in NZ.

If Kiwi rugby fans can't be engaged in this Super Rugby format, what hope is there for anybody else.

The writing is on the wall and has been for sometime.

 

[Braveheart81]

Only SANZAAR could run rugby into the ground in NZ.

If Kiwi rugby fans can't be engaged in this Super Rugby format, what hope is there for anybody else.

The writing is on the wall and has been for sometime.

Is it really just SANZAAR though?

Rugby around the world is losing money, largely on the back of competition for players. In the Northern Hemisphere part of that is funded by private owners who are willing to sustain losses and that is putting pressure on everyone to pay competitively.

It's not like the Mitre 10 Cup is booming and the one problem is Super Rugby.

 

[dru]

Is it really just SANZAAR though?

Rugby around the world is losing money, largely on the back of competition for players. In the Northern Hemisphere part of that is funded by private owners who are willing to sustain losses and that is putting pressure on everyone to pay competitively.

It's not like the Mitre 10 Cup is booming and the one problem is Super Rugby.

No it is not just SANZAAR. But is IS SANZAAR.

 

[Braveheart81]

No it is not just SANZAAR. But is IS SANZAAR.

They have made a number of massive blunders but there seems to be this ongoing assumption that they are completely separate from the unions that make it up.

Quick Hands' post seems to lay the NZRU's financial issues at the feet of SANZAAR rather than it being their fault. Surely they own both the successes and the failures.

 

[Quick Hands]

Is it really just SANZAAR though?

Rugby around the world is losing money, largely on the back of competition for players. In the Northern Hemisphere part of that is funded by private owners who are willing to sustain losses and that is putting pressure on everyone to pay competitively.

It's not like the Mitre 10 Cup is booming and the one problem is Super Rugby.

SANZAAR run Super Rugby, which is what this thread is about. As I commented in the last couple of pages, one of the issues that it faces is that the unions involved have vastly different needs and circumstances and thus the end solution often suits nobody because it is a necessary compromise to get a decision.

 

[Quick Hands]

They have made a number of massive blunders but there seems to be this ongoing assumption that they are completely separate from the unions that make it up.

Quick Hands' post seems to lay the NZRU's financial issues at the feet of SANZAAR rather than it being their fault. Surely they own both the successes and the failures.

Game day revenue to NZRU is generated by SANZAAR run competitions - Super Rugby and TRC.

match-day income fell to $28.1 million, down from $64.6 million.

Broadcast rights are part of the SANZAAR arrangements.

Broadcast rights remained the biggest source of income for New Zealand Rugby in 2018, generating $73.3 million, down from $104.6 million the previous year.

 

[Quick Hands]

.

Quick Hands' post seems to lay the NZRU's financial issues at the feet of SANZAAR rather than it being their fault. Surely they own both the successes and the failures.

Obviously NZRU is a partner in SANZAAR and they bear equal blame as do the others. I thought that this was self-evident and didn't need to be explicitly noted. Obviously I was making the assumption that anybody with a passing knowledge of SANZAAR and Super Rugby would know this?

 

[Quick Hands]

The model is clearly broken.

It's clear now that the Super Rugby model isn't sustainable. SANZAAR - and its constituent unions just to be clear - can't go on losing this sort of money. There are no billionaires to prop it up, so if it can't make money for itself (and its constituent unions) then it has no future. The longer it goes on like this the bigger and harder the fall will be when it comes. Rugby NZ will survive regardless because it is ingrained in the national story and it has a worldwide marketable brand in the ABs. We have neither luxury.

Talking of billionaires, why don't RA try to convince one who owns a lot of mines to become involved in Australian Rugby. Maybe that might save us?

 

[Rebelsfan]

It's clear now that the Super Rugby model isn't sustainable. SANZAAR - and its constituent unions just to be clear - can't go on losing this sort of money. There are no billionaires to prop it up, so if it can't make money for itself (and its constituent unions) then it has no future. The longer it goes on like this the bigger and harder the fall will be when it comes. Rugby NZ will survive regardless because it is ingrained in the national story and it has a worldwide marketable brand in the ABs. We have neither luxury.

Talking of billionaires, why don't RA try to convince one who owns a lot of mines to become involved in Australian Rugby. Maybe that might save us?

Oh , wait ....

 

[half]

They have made a number of massive blunders but there seems to be this ongoing assumption that they are completely separate from the unions that make it up.

Quick Hands' post seems to lay the NZRU's financial issues at the feet of SANZAAR rather than it being their fault. Surely they own both the successes and the failures.

Bingo, nail head.

Meaning the systems and structures developed by the various governing bodies in Australia & NZ and state unions in Australia is @#@!@#$%%#. The faith I have in the ability of the various management structures who have got us in this position is limited.

Further meaning we need new systems and new structures that our current set ups cannot deliver.

So lets invite people with capital, smarts etc in and let them run it under licence.

Just maybe one day you will join me in demanding total change not small change but a revolution and I think we should look to the USA models and in particular the MLS model.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Geez guys - these media releases and massive numbers (eg $30m losses) are nothing more than NZRU trying to pressure the rest of the world in to accepting the World League so they can make even more money on the back of the All Blacks brand

The NZRU have net assets of $100m. They can easily cover $30m losses over the next 5 years. But in any case, if it came to it they would change what they are doing so as not to make these sort of losses

 

[Strewthcobber]

Game day revenue to NZRU is generated by SANZAAR run competitions - Super Rugby and TRC.

match-day income fell to $28.1 million, down from $64.6 million.

Broadcast rights are part of the SANZAAR arrangements.

Broadcast rights remained the biggest source of income for New Zealand Rugby in 2018, generating $73.3 million, down from $104.6 million the previous year.

Lions tour in 2017 isn't run by SANZAR

 

[Quick Hands]

Lions tour in 2017 isn't run by SANZAR

Correct. SANZAAR competitions are the loss maker, which is the point I have been trying to make.

NZRU made a profit in 2017 on the back of the BIL tour, it actually covered their loss making activities associated with SANZAAR.

They made a loss in 2016 when they relied on SANZAAR competitions i.e. Super Rugby and TRC.

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@boardro...-black-open-to-offers-for-post-2021-tv-rights

2016 $7 million loss when relying on Super Rugby and TRC (SANZAAR competitions)

2017 $33 million profit because of increased broadcast, crowds and sponsors during the BIL tour

2018 $1.9 million loss when relying on SANZAAR compeitions i.e. Super Rugby and TRC

I'm not sure that a once in 12 year sugar hit is a viable way to run a multi-million dollar operation

And we know that in RWC years that revenue drops as there are no inbound tours in June/July, so it's a reasonable assumption that they will post a loss in 2019 as they will only be relying on SANZAAR related competitions.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I will be frank that I don't think there is clear answer to solve our professional rugby woes in this country. And that is why exploring other avenues without an all in approach is best.

Yes we should continue to be in super rugby because without proven alternatives we can't risk complete detonating what is left of our professional game to oblivion.

Yes we should collaborate and explore other options e.g. rapid rugby and indeed allow for lower risk exploration of other new markets e.g. supporting a western sydney that is funded by others in rapid rugby. I truly hope Andrew Hore is fully behind getting Western Sydney in Rapid Rugby in 2020 as for me he otherwise is missing a huge opportunity.

Yes we should work with World Rugby on other options to help grow our game e.g. funding Samoa to be involved in NRC, supporting League of nations etc etc.

Yes we should explore any other options where could make lower risk investments/ pilots to test the waters for alternatives.

Yes we should welcome ideas of others (and there money).

But just accepting Super Rugby with the Sunwolves culled and a round robin 14 team competition that provides even less domestic home games is clear not the answer but on the contrary just supporting an inevitable continued dwindling interest in professional rugby in this country.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The NZRU generate more than enough revenue each year to cover their operating costs

They then choose to distribute some of the "sugar hit" each year over the cycle (eg to their provincial unions). There is absolutely no point in hoarding that cash, or spending it all in one year, and equally NZRU have no obligation to run a surplus each year

Their model is small losses each year to smooth the spend from the big influxes.

Look at NZRU balance sheet. It's clearly not a model that is broken for them

 

[dru]

They have made a number of massive blunders but there seems to be this ongoing assumption that they are completely separate from the unions that make it up.

Quick Hands' post seems to lay the NZRU's financial issues at the feet of SANZAAR rather than it being their fault. Surely they own both the successes and the failures.

I’m with you on this BH, otoh you seemed to suggest SANZAAR performance was acceptable as in the NH they were having trouble too. We should focus on our own mess.