Where to for Super Rugby?

[Killer]

Yeah, ockham's razor

except that Cox's licence was on the table early.
Don't you remember that long period when Cox was saying nothing.
He had given the ARU a price and Tim North at the time couldn't intervene as at that time hadn't got enough backers to cover Cox's price needs.
The price that Cox was asking was 5.7m, the amount stated by Clarke on his visit to Perth.
Eventually North was able to assemble a group to pay off Cox, probably no where near 5.7m, but enough.
They were given all the time they needed by Clarke and Clyne to make themselves safe.

 

[RugbyReg]

Changes at the sunwolves.

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/...-set-for-marquee-players-less-travelling.html

 

[WaltBrisney]

So it looks like an Australian team was cut to make life easier for the Sunwolves.

 

[James Pettifer]

except that Cox's licence was on the table early.
Don't you remember that long period when Cox was saying nothing.
He had given the ARU a price and Tim North at the time couldn't intervene as at that time hadn't got enough backers to cover Cox's price needs.
The price that Cox was asking was 5.7m, the amount stated by Clarke on his visit to Perth.
Eventually North was able to assemble a group to pay off Cox, probably no where near 5.7m, but enough.
They were given all the time they needed by Clarke and Clyne to make themselves safe.

Was Twiggy not involved at that point at all? If so, $5.7 million is loose change for him

 

[Killer]

Was Twiggy not involved at that point at all? If so, $5.7 million is loose change for him

you are missing the point James, that is that the licence WAS available to be bought by the ARU at one time if they wanted to.
They chose not to, thanks to the Rebels friends Clarke and Clyne.
Some like Daz and Stoff like to think this was not the case and that Cox was always loyal to them. That they were too business wise and smart to lose their licence. They weren't they just had friends in high places.
In the end Cox was loyal, but that was because T North had eventually rounded up enough money.
As I have said, good luck to the Rebs, but the only reason is they were protected by Clarke and Clyne, nothing else.

Anyway it means little now as Super rugby is on the way out unless TF saves it and even then the main southern hemisphere competition will become this new tournament reaching into Asia as that is where the money is.

 

[Highlander35]

you are missing the point James, that is that the licence WAS available to be bought by the ARU at one time if they wanted to.
They chose not to, thanks to the Rebels friends Clarke and Clyne.

Nah fam.

I reckon, it's as simple as the ARU thinking $200,000 in legal fees affirming in the courts that the license agreement was written the way they knew they had written it < $5,700,000 in purchasing the license outright, particularly if insolvency by 2019 was a legitimate concern as it so appears.

My read on the timeline is that the ARU obviously rejected the price outright, Cox asked them to publicly say the Rebels weren't under consideration if that were the case, and when they refused to do so, he then had his dummy spit, refused to do business, then when Twiggy's support and hence potential Godfather offer came along, looked to keep that promise by any legal means the VRU could provide.

 

[Killer]

Nah fam.

I reckon, it's as simple as the ARU thinking $200,000 in legal fees affirming in the courts that the license agreement was written the way they knew they had written it < $5,700,000 in purchasing the license outright, particularly if insolvency by 2019 was a legitimate concern as it so appears.

My read on the timeline is that the ARU obviously rejected the price outright, Cox asked them to publicly say the Rebels weren't under consideration if that were the case, and when they refused to do so, he then had his dummy spit, refused to do business, then when Twiggy's support and hence potential Godfather offer came along, looked to keep that promise by any legal means the VRU could provide.

Did they offer him a lesser figure? did they try to make a deal?
What is your take on the ARU giving T North a copy of the Force ARU Alliance agreement? a highly confidential document.
I haven't got time now got to get going to the Test.

 

[Highlander35]

Did they offer him a lesser figure? did they try to make a deal?
What is your take on the ARU giving T North a copy of the Force ARU Alliance agreement? a highly confidential document.
I haven't got time now got to get going to the Test.

As I've said before on numerous threads:

The only thing I'm happy about in this process is that the Rebels are alive in Super Rugby: if we'd gone, we'd be gone in entirety, no 2nd chances, and I'm happy that the VRU did everything in their power to make that the case.

Everything else about the process has been shambolic, uncompromising, nepotistic and fundamentally backhanded coming almost entirely from the ARU.

I'm not Twiggy's biggest fan by any means, but I am genuinely interested and excited to see his new comp and hopefully the Force thriving in it, retaining Wessells and any and all players the ARU doesn't influence over to the Eastern Seaboard with Wallabies Contracts/potential places.

I'm also not particularly happy about the some of the other Rebels fans attitudes, who've shifted to being a little more antagonistic since Monday, and I reckon the Senate enquiry is a very good thing to get all this shit aired out: even if it comes to nothing as is 99% likely.

Hope you enjoy yourself at the Test tonight Killer. Passion for Pro Rugby at non-Test level is something sorely lacking in this country, and you and your fellow Force supporters supply that in abundance.

 

[lou75]

How is it easier and cheaper, they are going to get killed and or lose control of rugby in Aus. I bet if they could they would change what they did, the Rebels would have just died quietly, their support and passion is small.

Just another self interest decision by Clyne which shows he has the macro skills of a gnat. He out manoeuvred himself then and now it is TF who doing it to him.
If he had any kind of macro skills and risk minimisation skills he would have grabbed Cox's licence to ensure they maintained control of the situation.
They didn't know if the Alliance agreement would hold or not in court.
But they didn't because he and Clarke were emotionally invested in the Rebels. That was the only option they could countenance, no macro vision.
Cox was even told he was safe before the announcement.
They didn't buy the licence when Cox was willing to sell it to them.
They then assisted the Rebels along the entire path facilitating the licence transfer. Pretending all along they were unaware even though the signed paperwork says otherwise.
They even gave the Rebels a copy of the Force Alliance agreement which was strictly confidential.
Tim North (VRU) now refuses to deny they were given it even though previously he has admitted to it, can't bring himself to outright deny it being a barrister, the risk is too high.
The whole process has been completely compromised from the start by Clyne, Clarke and now it seems North whose integrity seems to now be hanging by a thread.
At the end of the day they survived, good luck to them, but only because they were protected.

I have to say that if T North was shown documents then its not his integrity that is called into question , it is the integrity of the show-er that is called into question

 

[James Pettifer]

you are missing the point James, that is that the licence WAS available to be bought by the ARU at one time if they wanted to.
They chose not to, thanks to the Rebels friends Clarke and Clyne.
Some like Daz and Stoff like to think this was not the case and that Cox was always loyal to them. That they were too business wise and smart to lose their licence. They weren't they just had friends in high places.
In the end Cox was loyal, but that was because T North had eventually rounded up enough money.
As I have said, good luck to the Rebs, but the only reason is they were protected by Clarke and Clyne, nothing else.

Anyway it means little now as Super rugby is on the way out unless TF saves it and even then the main southern hemisphere competition will become this new tournament reaching into Asia as that is where the money is.

Assuming that the price was offered (and we are relying on hearsay from the ARU via the WARU here and I'd trust the ARU as far as I could throw them). The ARU obviously had legal advice, which was apparently right, that they could get their outcome (removing a team) by getting rid of the Force for a cheaper price. Why would they pay $5.7 million if they could pay $200k? But if Twiggy had put in $5.7 million to buy the Rebels at that point then either the ARU would have made the same decision (and thus clearly confirming a conspiracy) or the Force would be alive and the Rebels dead. I really don't think there was a conspiracy. Removing the Force was just the easiest and cheapest option for the ARU given they wanted to move down to 4 teams. There was clearly a lack of competence and incredibly poor foresight and change management. I do agree with Super Rugby being on the way out. To be perfectly honest, I don't care what the Rugby competition is as long as there is a Melbourne team that I can go and watch. It is going to be very interesting to see what the next version of the competition is and hopefully it will include teams from both Perth and Melbourne. I personally think that the best option for Australian rugby in the long term is a domestic competition (perhaps with some kind of champions type league) but I just hope the ARU hire well and develop a better strategy than the one they currently have to grow rugby in Australia.

 

[jimmydubs]

Why would they pay $5.7 million if they could pay $200k?.

Because the rebels have proved to be a long term black hole for cash. $5.5 million is cheap to end up with a sustainable club vs one that will continue to bleed you dry.

 

[James Pettifer]

Because the rebels have proved to be a long term black hole for cash. $5.5 million is cheap to end up with a sustainable club vs one that will continue to bleed you dry.

This is completely the ARU's fault. To have, what are supposed to be, experienced business people continually giving out extra money to all clubs without having clear budgetary controls on those clubs with regards to expenses is completely negligent. If they haven't put controls in place by now, and the Rebels continue to require significant additional funding then it is the ARU's own fault.
Of course, the Force haven't exactly been particularly sustainable from a profit perspective and I'm sure that both the Force and the Rebels had a shit 2017 from a profit perspective as well with the further drop in crowds. And I know the Force has Twiggy but the Rebels also have financial backers - just ones who are less keen to be in the spotlight. Unfortunately for the Force, Twiggy came to the party too late.
Of course, maybe the WARU should have changed the Own the Force concept to Buy the Rebels ...

 

[dru]

So it looks like an Australian team was cut to make life easier for the Sunwolves.

Well yes, but it's a misleading simplification. SANZAAR wanted to expand to more lucrative markets searching for the elusive $. That meant that Jaguares and Sunwolves were not just not on the cut list, they are actually the point of the strategy. The cut from 18 to 15 was for a streamlined comp structure - required after the debacle of the expanded draw. We can consider ourselves lucky to cut one, c/f the Safers two. The problem is what is good for SANZAAR isnt necessarily what is good for Australia. IMO they should have made a sensible draw and a 3 conference system through to 2020, with broadcast negotiations up that would have been the time for cutting.

 

[WaltBrisney]

Well yes, but it's a misleading simplification. SANZAAR wanted to expand to more lucrative markets searching for the elusive $. That meant that Jaguares and Sunwolves were not just not on the cut list, they are actually the point of the strategy. The cut from 18 to 15 was for a streamlined comp structure - required after the debacle of the expanded draw. We can consider ourselves lucky to cut one, c/f the Safers two. The problem is what is good for SANZAAR isnt necessarily what is good for Australia. IMO they should have made a sensible draw and a 3 conference system through to 2020, with broadcast negotiations up that would have been the time for cutting.

No, what is good for SANZAAR is most definitely not good for Australian rugby. It served us well initially but the sooner we are out of Super Rugby the better off we will be.

 

[Mr Wobbly]

Changes at the sunwolves.

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/...-set-for-marquee-players-less-travelling.html

Just reading this article and wondering if Sean McMahon could be one of the marquee players heading to the Sunwolves? It seems odd that his Japanese team hasn't been named even though their season has started already. You would think that the team in Japan would be blasting that news out at every opportunity.

 

[GaffaCHinO]

 

[GaffaCHinO]

Also just seen on Facebook during the anthems a group of little kids were stopped from walking out with the players and standing with them during the anthems because they were is Force gear such a petty act by the ARU

 

[daz]

Also just seen on Facebook during the anthems a group of little kids were stopped from walking out with the players and standing with them during the anthems because they were is Force gear such a petty act by the ARU

If that's true, it's hardly surprising. I thought the blue in the crowd was a good protest message, but there there is not a rugby governing body in the world that would think allowing the protest to spill out onto a global presentation is appropriate.

Sad for the kids who got caught up in the tug of war, but I'm not sure any other outcome was to be expected.

 

[Runner]

The issue now is will rugby survive in the west or eslewhere?

The juniors in the west etc. will have no main squad in their home state to play for unless Mr Twiggy sets up a competition.

If I was a kid I would look at what the AFL have done. They has slowly worked on a 50 year plan. One team in each major city, then work towards two. Provide funds , marketing and stick to the plan. I would send my kid to play AFL.

Now that is a real challenge but I would do it. So what does that thought tell me? That Rugby is dying!

So on Saturday I watch the AFL matches and saw a great game. Even watched the League. Didn't bother with Test match. Having been involved as spectator, coach etc. in junior rugby and I have walked.

ARU are still running chock raffles mentality.

 

[Quick Hands]

The issue now is will rugby survive in the west or eslewhere?

The juniors in the west etc. will have no main squad in their home state to play for unless Mr Twiggy sets up a competition.

If I was a kid I would look at what the AFL have done. They has slowly worked on a 50 year plan. One team in each major city, then work towards two. Provide funds , marketing and stick to the plan. I would send my kid to play AFL.

Now that is a real challenge but I would do it. So what does that thought tell me? That Rugby is dying!

So on Saturday I watch the AFL matches and saw a great game. Even watched the League. Didn't bother with Test match. Having been involved as spectator, coach etc. in junior rugby and I have walked.

ARU are still running chock raffles mentality.

average rugby crowds in Australia since 2003:

Year - average crowd

2003 - 34,793
2004 - 29,184
2005 - 28,552
2006 - 22,609
2007 - 14,118
2008 - 26,827
2009 - 21,341
2010 - 22,622
2011 - 20,130
2012 - 22,360
2013 - 22,654
2014 - 12,218
2015 - 16,841
2016 - 18,818
2017 - 13,297

http://www.austadiums.com/sport/sport.php?sid=5