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World Class Players

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Biffo

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
A very good coach (was it Bob Dwyer?) once remarked that a team needed 5-6 players who were the best in the world in their positions to win a World Cup.

How many players does Australia have who are even genuine contenders for best in the world status? I would suggest very few:

1. Robinson
2. Moore and soon, Polota-Nau
3. Smith
4. Rocky
5. Giteau.

And let's drop that awful, meaningless expression "world class".
 
naza

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Erm, Mortlock ?

Or are we talking 2011. In which case Jimmy Horwill would be up there by then.

I'm not so hot on Dwyer's theory. What if you have 5 world XV players but fringe players at fulcrum positons - 2, 8, 9, 10, 15 ? And I'd say when it comes to the World Cup, the most important player in the team is the goal kicker.
 
Biffo

Biffo

Ken Catchpole (46)
I am asking about right now.

I don't quite agree with Dwyer, as your point has merit. He was probably right in the amateur era but things have changed - especially that the gaps in ability and performance between players at successive rankings for each position have narrowed.

Looking back over the winners in the professional era (1999 to 2007) I would say you need 8-10 in the top 3 in the world, of whom 3-4 should be best in their position.

But let's stick to the subject. I'd like to discuss just how many really outstanding players we have right now. How many you need to win RWC and how many we'll have in 2011 are different subjects.
 
Pfitzy

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I guess, as long as they play like a team, I don't care who rates them or doesn't.

Definitely Robinson, Moore, Smith, Elsom, and Giteau are up there. The rest still have too much to prove.
 
Epi

Epi

Dave Cowper (27)
Elsom and Giteau.. That's it at this stage. McCaw is still the best open-side flanker in the world.

And when Carter comes back if Gits is playing 10.. we might be left with one??
 
naza

naza

Alan Cameron (40)
Epi said:
Elsom and Giteau.. That's it at this stage. McCaw is still the best open-side flanker in the world.

And when Carter comes back if Gits is playing 10.. we might be left with one??
Click to expand...

How is Elsom in a World XV ? Juan Smith is the world's best blindside flanker and Sergio Parisse the best #8 on the planet.

Interesting that Giteau is the only back mentioned so far.
 
disco

disco

Chilla Wilson (44)
McCaw is still the best open-side flanker in the world.
Click to expand...

McCaw maybe better than Smith but Smith is still world class.

I think Mortlock has been the best 13 in world rugby for a while now, although some Irish fans may disagree.
 
cyclopath

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
naza said:
Epi said:
Elsom and Giteau.. That's it at this stage. McCaw is still the best open-side flanker in the world.

And when Carter comes back if Gits is playing 10.. we might be left with one??
Click to expand...

How is Elsom in a World XV ? Juan Smith is the world's best blindside flanker and Sergio Parisse the best #8 on the planet.

Interesting that Giteau is the only back mentioned so far.
Click to expand...

Not really. How many countries would have more than 1? NZ might claim Carter (crocked currently) and maybe Sivi or Rok as 1 wing, Nonu maybe (??); SA could say Habana (on form) and JdV at 12 maybe.
I would put Giteau and Morty in that bracket, so 2 aint bad I reckon.
Forwards - Rocky, Smith and Moore are all in the best 2-3 in their positions, and Robbo would be staking a claim too now or soonish.
 
R

rugbywhisperer

Guest
A close friend who gives brown paper bags full of folding stuff to one of the leagues clubs (avoidance of salary cap isues) rekons you need 2 backs at the top of the tree (one at flyhalf or half) and 2 forwards in similar form.
You then need another 2 backs and forwards not quite at the top but very good players. The rest need to be players any club would want anyday.
I happen to agree and it goes for our game from test to schoolboy rugby, but to actually win a World Cup add another top line player to each forwards and backs plus a goal kicker.
Currently we have Morty, Barnes and Gits with Tuquiri in the 2nd tier for backs and forwards we have Robinson
Moore, Smith, Rocky and I will add Sharpe.
To be frank its our regular cattle at 9, 15, 11, 5 and 8 that are not at the qualit we need but i do see Brown, Pocock being there come 2011 but we need another top line lock (2nd row in old speak).
Half back is our biggest concern. None of our boys are anywhere near what we need to win a World Cup.
 
farva

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
Carter has been injured for some time and I would not be surprised if he came back never to reach the form he had before. Plus I think Giteau has grown a lot over the last few years so that even if Carter were in top form, there would still be an arguement that Giteau is still the worlds best flyhalf.

McCaw has had concussion injuries and I dont think he will ever get back to his previous standards. I dont know enough about other contenders such as Dusatoir or Fernandez Lobbe, but I would think Smith is the worlds best openside.

I think those two are clear cut.

It is very difficult to make a call between Elsom and Juan Smith for blindside, and either could be the best on their day. Not sure who else could be bracketed with them.

There are a whole host of players at loose head that are at the same standard as Robinson, and it is very difficult to make a call there when they never play each other or even in the same competition.

Moore is probably challenged by Bismark du Plessis as the best hooker going around. The argie hooker Ledesma has had a fall in form what I have heard and I am not sure too many others are at that standard (what about that French hooker with the flowing locks?)

Mortlock has been the best 13 in the world, but I think he is down on form at the moment so BOD probably takes that title. But I would love to see Stirlo step up in the 3N to reclaim his crown.

I would bracket Sharpe in with the top locks going around. He has stepped up after being dropped last year for the SA tour. There are a lot of challengers and none have really stood out as the best. Matfield is not in the form he was in 2 years ago.

I dont rate Lote as the best wing in the country so he is not there as the best in the world. Our other wingers havent really had the international exposure to be called the best going around. But some of them look like they could be very good. I look forward to seeing Turner and Ioane get to the next level. And I see big things for Nic Cummins in the future.

I see big things for a few players - Cummins, Pocock, OConnor, Turner, Ioane, Alexander but we will have to wait and see if they can step up. And I am sure there are others out there that will come along in the next few years.
 
S

Spook

Guest
BOD hasn't been the best 13 in the world for a while. He's a warrior and flanker-like player that leads his team around but in terms or breaking the line and setting up tries, he isn't what used to be. Morty was the best 13 last year but this year he hasn't proved it yet.
 
farva

farva

Vay Wilson (31)
I admit I havent watched much of the Magners League, HEC or 6N, but I was under the impression that BOD had recaptured some form and was a half decent centre again.

Mind you, the Irish have never been ones for talking up their players...
 
PaarlBok

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Pretty much true, thats why I think the Brutes are favourates to win the S14. They got Habana, FdP, Spies, Matfield , Bakkies and Pakslae.

To go back to McAwe, he sure need to step up, the SA youngsters Brussouw & Stegmann won the battle handson, this year BUT he is a bit like Schalk, give him the right jersey and they'll prove you wrong.
 
Langthorne

Langthorne

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I disagree with Bob Dwyer on that one.

The best team will win, not the team with the most players in the fantasy world XV.

The All Blacks almost always have more of "the best in the position" players than anyone else. Their level of World Cup success is well known.

It may be that the Wallabies have certain players who are World Class (though I suspect we won't be getting a consensus on them here - MOORE?! TIQIRI?! I don't think so). It may be that the Wallabies have a couple who are best in their position (maybe Giteau and Robinson). I won't losing any sleep over it though.

What the Wallabies have is enough players who are good enough, if they are of one mind and have the right direction (I hope so Robbie) and attitude.



The French Hooker is Dimitri Szarzewski and I think he is one of their best players.

My thoughts on George Smith can be found on other threads
 
S

Spook

Guest
Langthorne said:
The French Hooker is Dimitri Szarzewski and I think he is one of their best players.
Click to expand...

The same Dimitri Szarzewski that can't hit a barn door?
 
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