World Class Players

[RugbyReg]

Its a bit chicken and egg I reckon. Do you win the RWC and then people judge the players better or do you win the RWC because you already have those standard of players?

 

[Scarfman]

Just for the record, I like rugbywhisperer's mate's view (above). Good balance of As, Bs, and Cs in the side, plus gives you an idea of what your priorities are in chasing/developing players.

 

[Biffo]

Just for the record, I like rugbywhisperer's mate's view (above). Good balance of As, Bs, and Cs in the side, plus gives you an idea of what your priorities are in chasing/developing players.

Agreed. There's an old rugby belief that the spine of a team is numbers 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15. If you look at the six RWCs so far, five were very strong in all those positions.

Nod, it's not chicken and egg or egg and chicken. If you go back over the records, the top 2-3 players in every position can be fairly well identified before the RWC starts.

 

[Scarfman]

The whole Butch James thing spoils it a bit. But that was a very weird RWC.

 

[Biffo]

The whole Butch James thing spoils it a bit. But that was a very weird RWC.

oops, I missed him. I was thinking of Troy Coker.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

While all you guys are trolling the senior levels of rugby I am still firmy fixated at the schoolboy level.
In looking at who has the best sides I do exactly as I said previously and what was reiterated by Biffo - 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15 but with a great no7 thrown in and a very handy 12, 13 or 14/11.
It is amazing how often it comes true - teams with stronger than average players in ALL those positions are winners most of the time. The real test comes down to the quality of the second tier players / the drones.
Looking back on the winning teams in what I am closest to they all had those combinations.

At national level as much I would want Gits at 12 he is the best 10 in the world BUT we do not have anywhere near a good enough 9 feeding him. When we get a great 15 and 9 we will be in contention and not before. The rest we have.

 

[Lindommer]

...I am still firmy fixated at the schoolboy level.

You'd better be careful, whispers, Lee's missus might add your name when she talks to the police about old buggers hanging around schoolboy rugby players. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 

[RugbyReg]

While all you guys are trolling the senior levels of rugby I am still firmy fixated at the schoolboy level.
In looking at who has the best sides I do exactly as I said previously and what was reiterated by Biffo - 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15 but with a great no7 thrown in and a very handy 12, 13 or 14/11.
It is amazing how often it comes true - teams with stronger than average players in ALL those positions are winners most of the time. The real test comes down to the quality of the second tier players / the drones.
Looking back on the winning teams in what I am closest to they all had those combinations.

At national level as much I would want Gits at 12 he is the best 10 in the world BUT we do not have anywhere near a good enough 9 feeding him. When we get a great 15 and 9 we will be in contention and not before. The rest we have.

so no tight five (other than a hooker)? Is that because you don't think that they are important for success or just not sure what to look for in this type of player?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Sheeet, I didn't think anyone would notice. Better hide the camera.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

While all you guys are trolling the senior levels of rugby I am still firmy fixated at the schoolboy level.
In looking at who has the best sides I do exactly as I said previously and what was reiterated by Biffo - 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15 but with a great no7 thrown in and a very handy 12, 13 or 14/11.
It is amazing how often it comes true - teams with stronger than average players in ALL those positions are winners most of the time. The real test comes down to the quality of the second tier players / the drones.
Looking back on the winning teams in what I am closest to they all had those combinations.

At national level as much I would want Gits at 12 he is the best 10 in the world BUT we do not have anywhere near a good enough 9 feeding him. When we get a great 15 and 9 we will be in contention and not before. The rest we have.

so no tight five (other than a hooker)? Is that because you don't think that they are important for success or just not sure what to look for in this type of player?

No I certainly think they are important but the MOST important ones are as I said.
You need a great 2, great 9, 10 and 15. When I say great - in the top 3 or 4 in the world. The locks and props fall into the second tier and still have to be very good but not necessarity the best in the world. Of course, a world class front row is what any team wants but top notch world slaying props are rare and you rarely get 2 in the same country at the same time.

 

[RugbyReg]

Just for the record, I like rugbywhisperer's mate's view (above). Good balance of As, Bs, and Cs in the side, plus gives you an idea of what your priorities are in chasing/developing players.

Agreed. There's an old rugby belief that the spine of a team is numbers 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15. If you look at the six RWCs so far, five were very strong in all those positions.

Nod, it's not chicken and egg or egg and chicken. If you go back over the records, the top 2-3 players in every position can be fairly well identified before the RWC starts.

I'm not as convinced as this. Back in 91, I don't think anyone was suggesting John Eales was one of the world's best locks, but they were after the tournament. Probably the same with Willie O and blindside.

Mark Andrews and Francois Pienaar in 95 I reckons the same.

Toutai Kefu in 99, possibly even Andrew Blades.

In 2003 the centres - Tindall and Greenwood.

Tis all in theory I guess. What I am suggesting is that winning the world cup can have the by product of promoting players in to World XV calibre players.

 

[rugbywhisperer]

Just for the record, I like rugbywhisperer's mate's view (above). Good balance of As, Bs, and Cs in the side, plus gives you an idea of what your priorities are in chasing/developing players.

Agreed. There's an old rugby belief that the spine of a team is numbers 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15. If you look at the six RWCs so far, five were very strong in all those positions.

Nod, it's not chicken and egg or egg and chicken. If you go back over the records, the top 2-3 players in every position can be fairly well identified before the RWC starts.

I'm not as convinced as this. Back in 91, I don't think anyone was suggesting John Eales was one of the world's best locks, but they were after the tournament. Probably the same with Willie O and blindside.

Mark Andrews and Francois Pienaar in 95 I reckons the same.

Toutai Kefu in 99, possibly even Andrew Blades.

In 2003 the centres - Tindall and Greenwood.

Tis all in theory I guess. What I am suggesting is that winning the world cup can have the by product of promoting players in to World XV calibre players.

Agree but maybe those players were wworld class but nobody noticed.

Certainly in 91 we had world class 2, 8 (even without Tim Gaven), 9, 10 and 15 with very good 5,7, and 11/14 to back up. If I remember correctly we had half of out test team in a World 15 so it showed the strength we had. Similarly for 99 we were very strong in those core positions and the second tier players were not far away.

 

[RugbyReg]

ok, then lets look at RWC winning teams - perhaps we can name the "greats" and see a trend?

1987

JOHN GALLAGHER
JOHN KIRWIN
WARWICK TAYLOR
JOE STANLEY
CRAIG GREEN
GRANT FOX - as a goal kicker at least
DAVID KIRK (c)
WAYNE SHELFORD
MICHAEL JONES
ALAN WHETTON
GARY WHETTON
MURRAY PIERCE
STEVE MCDOWELL
SEAN FITZPATRICK
JOHN DRAKE

any others?

1991

MARTY ROEBUCK
ROB EGERTON
JASON LITTLE
TIM HORAN
DAVID CAMPESE
MICHAEL LYNAGH - another great goal kicker
NICK FARR-JONES (c)
TROY COKER
SIMON POIDEVIN
WILLIE OFAHENGAUE
JOHN EALES
ROD MCALL
EWEN MCENZIE
PHIL KEARNS
TONY DALY

am I too generous with any there? Kearns? He's the best Aussie hooker I have seen.

1995

ANDRE JOUBERT
JAMES SMALL
JAPIE MULDER
HENNIE LE ROUX
CHESTER WILLIAMS
JOEL STRANKSY
JOOST VAN DER WESTHUIZEN
MARK ANDREWS
FRANCOIS PIENAAR (c) as a captain at least
RUBEN KRUGER
HANNES STRYDOM
KOBUS WEISE
BALIE SWART
CHRIS ROSSOUW
OS DU RANDT

Replacements:
GARRY PAGEL
RUDOLF STRAEULI
BRENDAN VENTER

What do you reckon here? Missing any? I'd go close with Andrews. Wouldn't consider Stransky a great, despite his kicking - which did win them this title.

1999

MATTHEW BURKE - goal kicker
BEN TUNE
DANIEL HERBERT
TIM HORAN
JOE ROFF
STEVE LARKHAM
GEORGE GREGAN
TOUTAI KEFU
DAVID WILSON
MATTHEW COCKBAIN
JOHN EALES (c)
DAVID GIFFEN
ANDREW BLADES
MICHAEL FOLEY
RICHARD HARRY

Reserves:
JASON LITTLE
NATHAN GREY
CHRIS WHITTAKER
MARK CONNORS
OWEN FINEGAN
DAN CROWLEY
JEREMY PAUL

2003

JOSH LEWSEY
JASON ROBINSON
WILL GREENWOOD
MIKE TINDALL
BEN COHEN
JONNY WILKINSON - kicker
MATT DAWSON
LAWRENCE DALLAGLIO
NEIL BACK
RICHARD HILL
MARTIN JOHNSON (c)
BEN KAY
PHIL VICKERY
STEVE THOMPSON
TREVOR WOODMAN

Reserves:
JASON LEONARD
IAIN BALSHAW
MIKE CATT
LEWIS MOODY

2007

PERCY MONTGOMERY
JP PIETERSEN
JAQUE FOURIE
FRANCOIS STEYN
BRYAN HABANA
BUTCH JAMES
FOURIE DU PREEZ
DANIE ROSSOUW
JUAN SMITH
SCHALK BURGER
VICTOR MATFIELD
BAKKIES BOTHA
CJ VAN DER LINDE
JOHN SMIT
OS DU RANDT

Reserves:
BISMARCK DU PLESSIS
WICKUS VAN HEERDEN


Thoughts?

 

[rugbywhisperer]

I was going to add in my previous that I didn't consider the 95 SA team that great or rather have the players needed but they played as a team and IMO emotion to a very large degree (and a good dose of food poisoning to the AB's) got them across the line.
The 87,91, 99 and I think the 03 WC's were wone with top players in the key positions and if they missed one they had 2 very good second tier players instead.
As i said, you need 6 cream of the crop, 5 just belo and the rest very good workers but don't have to be world class - yet.
All Aussie needs is a 9 and 15 and I think we are well on our way to a great base for 2011 but we do not have a 9 or a 15 withing shouting distance.

 

[disco]

What the Wallabies have is enough players who are good enough, if they are of one mind and have the right direction (I hope so Robbie) and attitude.

Spot on Langthorne.

All Aussie needs is a 9 and 15 and I think we are well on our way to a great base for 2011 but we do not have a 9 or a 15 withing shouting distance.

I think Genia & JOC (James O'Connor) may get there.

 

[RugbyReg]

I was going to add in my previous that I didn't consider the 95 SA team that great or rather have the players needed but they played as a team and IMO emotion to a very large degree (and a good dose of food poisoning to the AB's) got them across the line.

agreed, whereas you look at the 95 AB side:

GLEN OSBORNE
JEFF WILSON
FRANK BUNCE
WALTER LITTLE
JONAH LOMU
ANDREW MEHRTENS
GRAEME BACHOP
ZINZAN BROOKE
JOSH KRONFELD
MIKE BREWER
ROBIN BROOKE
IAN JONES
CRAIG DOWD
SEAN FITZPATRICK (c)
OLO BROWN

Reserves:
MARC ELLIS
JAMIE JOSEPH
RICHARD LOE
ANT STACHAN

 

[PaarlBok]

You do see a trend in the last three. Locks, Eales, Johnson & Matfield. Myself think a 9 or/and 10 also important.

Ja that 1995 team was a special one. No big names but they were awesome as a unit. Think one important thing about a team want to win the WC is that they have to click at the right time as a team.

Did not help the All Blacks much, having the nr1 rating and all the big name players but they dont hit form at the right time. In SA cases we had two provinces going through the ranks just before the WC tournaments we won. Transvaal was Super Kings in 1995 and the Brutes came through in 2007 producing the bulk of the national team.

 

[Biffo]

You do see a trend in the last three. Locks, Eales, Johnson & Matfield. Myself think a 9 or/and 10 also important.

Ja that 1995 team was a special one. No big names but they were awesome as a unit. Think one important thing about a team want to win the WC is that they have to click at the right time as a team.

Did not help the All Blacks much, having the nr1 rating and all the big name players but they dont hit form at the right time. In SA cases we had two provinces going through the ranks just before the WC tournaments we won. Transvaal was Super Kings in 1995 and the Brutes came through in 2007 producing the bulk of the national team.

Morning, PB.

I was thinking about that last night. Could you please list the 1995 team by province?

 

[PaarlBok]

Sure
1995

ANDRE JOUBERT (Sharks)
JAMES SMALL not sure but he learn his trade in Tvl, then Sharks , then WP
JAPIE MULDER (Tvl)
HENNIE LE ROUX (Tvl)
CHESTER WILLIAMS (WP & Tvl)
JOEL STRANKSY (Sharks & WP)
JOOST VAN DER WESTHUIZEN (Brutes)
MARK ANDREWS (Sharks)
FRANCOIS PIENAART (c) (Tvl)
RUBEN KRUGER (Brutes)
HANNES STRYDOM (Tvl)
KOBUS WIESE (Tvl)
BALIE SWART (Tvl)
CHRIS ROSSOUW (Tvl)
OS DU RANDT (Cheetahs)

Replacements:
GARRY PAGEL (WeePee)
RUDOLF STRAEULI (Brute)
BRENDAN VENTER (Cheetahs)

 

[Langthorne]

I like your lists, and it would be hard to argue with your choices.

Based on my recollections, I would add these as world class (one of the best):

KOBUS WEISE - he was immense in every way (and is even bigger these days), maybe 3 in the world at the time

DAVID WILSON - certainly one of the best if not the best in his position

JOHN EALES (c) - Already on the list, but I'd say he counts for 2 or 3 lesser mortals

JASON LEONARD - on the bench (talk about depth), but tough as nails and what a career.

BRYAN HABANA - incredible acceleration, and he was on fire (no slouch these days either)

OS DU RANDT - even at the end he was up there with the best


Even with these lists of individuals, we can see there are often multiple teams with equal numbers of top players. I will always be happy if the Wallabies have multiple top players, but I still think that is a secondary consideration (remember NZ?). Also, the performance of the Argentinians in the last World Cup was more about team ethic than individuals (though they did have a few excellent individuals too - how many were the best?). I know they didn't win it, but they played very well indeed.