Wallabies 2023

[qwerty51]

Sadly many people these days equate accountability/expectation to bullying. If you've watched the Michael Jordan documentary "The Last Dance" you could probably draw parallels between MJ's expectations with Eddies coaching style

There’s a pretty great example currently with the Australian cricket team. The players got rid of Langer and now look..

 

[Braveheart81]

Are there many (any) examples of coaches have sustained success for longer than four years? Maybe some of the Crusaders coaches at provincial level.

Wales went up and down in the period but you would say they improved overall with Warren Gatland as the coach for 12 years.

At international level it is very much linked to world cup cycles and not a lot of coaches get more than 4 years to find out. Graham Henry and Steve Hansen were both in the job for a long time.

 

[Braveheart81]

There’s a pretty great example currently with the Australian cricket team. The players got rid of Langer and now look..

I don't know that is accurate.

Langer was already on the outer and McDonald effectively running things when we won the T20 CWC and then home Ashes series.

They'd had success and failure since Langer was ousted.

We got flogged in India when Langer was coach too.

It's obviously off topic but I think Langer was exactly what the Aussie cricket team needed when he came in but over time the issued he was brought in to fix were fixed and then he couldn't pivot to providing what the team needed after that.

 

[stillmissit]

It seems fairly clear that Eddie Jones is very much in that Michael Cheika vein where it is unlikely they can succeed as a coach somewhere over a very long period of time. Their methods can and do bring success but it is also likely to fall apart if you let it run for too long.

I am guessing Rugby Australia thinks (or hopes) that they can hit that sweet spot before things go south with Jones by getting a boost heading to the 2023 RWC but it not being too long when 2027 rolls around which has to be the main game.

BH, I suspect you define him accurately and I hope that RA has followed the path you are suggesting.
If he gets us to a RWC final or a semi I'll be grateful and take back all the bile I have had over him across the years. If he gets us the Bledisloe he can force a nervous breakdown on half of our guys and I will forgive him.

 

[stillmissit]

Or was it more a case that people commonly enforced accountability/expectation with a fair degree of bullying and largely the acceptance of that (or no longer accepting it) is what has changed?

It's absolutely true that over time the way to get the best out of people has changed because society has changed.

BH, It used to be the two great drivers of change, fear and greed but it is more complex these days.

 

[fatprop]

Exactly why he's so controversial, if some players weren't up to it they probably aren't used to being called out like he does. Does that make it right? Probably not and I do worry about how Eddie handles the new Gen Z of players because there's undoubtedly a difference in attitudes and responding to criticism between generations and the best coaches will be those that man manage the best. But he can evovle.

Jones touches on it in the interview with Gould, but I agree Jones's truth sessions can be brutal

Dunning was a victim of his analysis "“I thought Eddie was awesome. I’ve never been spoken to by a human-being worse, but it’s different with Eddie. Everything he said was pretty spot on. I worked better with the stick, that worked for me.”"

https://wwos.nine.com.au/podcasts/six-tackles-with-gus with

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

It seems fairly clear that Eddie Jones is very much in that Michael Cheika vein where it is unlikely they can succeed as a coach somewhere over a very long period of time. Their methods can and do bring success but it is also likely to fall apart if you let it run for too long.

I am guessing Rugby Australia thinks (or hopes) that they can hit that sweet spot before things go south with Jones by getting a boost heading to the 2023 RWC but it not being too long when 2027 rolls around which has to be the main game.

I think this is right. My sense is that there'll be some improvement, some good results and then the players will get tired of Eddie, as they inevitably do, his methods stop working and he gets pushed aside (usually unwillingly). The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour and we've seen plenty of examples with him over the years.

 

[Froggy]

While that old style of accountability is certainly no longer acceptable, in my experience the really high achievers, be it in sport, business or elsewhere, tend to place a very high level of accountability on themselves.
Interestingly, my first boss in my career (we're talking 1970's) was one of the old style 'Bullying' type bosses (although a wonderful fellow when you weren't in trouble) who demanded extremely high standards. While I (along with most others) used to whinge about him at the time, I later discovered he had ingrained a set of standards in me that later served me very well throughout my career.
Having said all that, his style would never have been accepted in this day and age.

 

[Braveheart81]

However you do it, I think you still have to be able to distill what it is that needs to be improved and how to improve it.

Lots of people over the years have been able to shout at people demanding they perform better but it only works if all parties know what it is that needs to be improved and how to improve it.

Hopefully Jones has developed the nuance in his approach to be able to get the best out of the most people in the squad.

My outsider take on all this is that the longer sport has been highly professional, the less that yelling abuse at people to work harder/train harder and play better is likely to work. These are already people who are highly motivated and have been part of elite programs for years in many cases. If there was an easy fix to make them better at what they're doing it's unlikely to be uncovered by yelling at them to be better.

 

[Derpus]

Wales went up and down in the period but you would say they improved overall with Warren Gatland as the coach for 12 years.

At international level it is very much linked to world cup cycles and not a lot of coaches get more than 4 years to find out. Graham Henry and Steve Hansen were both in the job for a long time.

Wales also had a golden generation come through and really only won a few 6 Nations. Mixed at best IMO. Hansen is a good example though.

 

[dru]

Even Bishop, in his harshest criticism of Eddie, started with “be ready for the instantaneous bounce”. Which in its own is something to celebrate.

in the mean time, Eddie isn’t going to die wondering. Now are we. It’s all out for the great rugby heist.

(I’ll contemplate the claimed non ability to push past 12 months - when we get there.)

EDIT: fucking IFF Eddie shows himself incapable as claimed in Aus the second time round.

God the swallowing of the Rodha narrative is boorish.

 

[Braveheart81]

Wales also had a golden generation come through and really only won a few 6 Nations. Mixed at best IMO. Hansen is a good example though.

I guess the thing with Wales is it was pretty stable. Gatland was coach for a very long time without things going off the rails. I think there are very few coaches that could do this.

That said, I agree with you and I don't think it was necessarily great for Wales to keep him in place for so long. At some point it definitely seemed to transition to Gatland being happy to have a pretty well paid gig with a tier 1 team and the WRU being content at where they were sitting but not willing to try and change things to see if they could do better.

 

[Brumbieman]

Time will tell of course, but as mentioned his teams tend to have an immediate boost for the first few years, and as they’re going to include a Bledisloe each year, a RWC which he is the most successful coach in history at, and then a Lions series, and then a home RWC all within 5 years, I’m pretty keen to see how many of them we can tick off before his ‘toxic culture’ of actually fucking winning things gets too ‘mean’ for the players earnings 10 years worth of the average wage of most Aussies PER YEAR.

 

[stillmissit]

However you do it, I think you still have to be able to distill what it is that needs to be improved and how to improve it.

Lots of people over the years have been able to shout at people demanding they perform better but it only works if all parties know what it is that needs to be improved and how to improve it.

Hopefully Jones has developed the nuance in his approach to be able to get the best out of the most people in the squad.

My outsider take on all this is that the longer sport has been highly professional, the less that yelling abuse at people to work harder/train harder and play better is likely to work. These are already people who are highly motivated and have been part of elite programs for years in many cases. If there was an easy fix to make them better at what they're doing it's unlikely to be uncovered by yelling at them to be better.

BH, what you state may well be true but human nature doesn't change and we will do things if there is an advantage to us in whatever guise it comes in.

 

[stillmissit]

Even Bishop, in his harshest criticism of Eddie, started with “be ready for the instantaneous bounce”. Which in its own is something to celebrate.

in the mean time, Eddie isn’t going to die wondering. Now are we. It’s all out for the great rugby heist.

(I’ll contemplate the claimed non ability to push past 12 months - when we get there.)

EDIT: fucking IFF Eddie shows himself incapable as claimed in Aus the second time round.

God the swallowing of the Rodha narrative is boorish.

Dru, anyone claiming there will not be a lift in our results is delusional. I can't remember a Wallaby team that didn't lift with a new coach.
The same goes for the fictitious 2nd year syndrome, Eddie will be fine in the second year, it is the 3rd when we can start to concern ourselves and that has little to do with Eddie (he will be the same) and plenty to do with our players, who lose faith when the results are not there and with it that 1-2% cutting edge that is so critical in rugby at this moment in time.

 

[Derpus]

Barnes, Wisemantel set to join Wallabies coaching staff as World Cup plans firm

Eddie Jones is close to securing the services of a 51-Test Wallaby to help Australia in their “smash and grab job” to win the World Cup.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Derpus]

Dru, anyone claiming there will not be a lift in our results is delusional. I can't remember a Wallaby team that didn't lift with a new coach.
The same goes for the fictitious 2nd year syndrome, Eddie will be fine in the second year, it is the 3rd when we can start to concern ourselves and that has little to do with Eddie (he will be the same) and plenty to do with our players, who lose faith when the results are not there and with it that 1-2% cutting edge that is so critical in rugby at this moment in time.

Forgotten Rennie have you?

 

[Dctarget]

Barnes, Wisemantel set to join Wallabies coaching staff as World Cup plans firm

Eddie Jones is close to securing the services of a 51-Test Wallaby to help Australia in their “smash and grab job” to win the World Cup.

www.smh.com.au

Odd about Wisemantel. Undermines his “family reasons”. Also goes against Rodha’s claim that Rennie the great manager still had the dressing room and Australia jumped the game.

 

[RugbyReg]

Odd about Wisemantel. Undermines his “family reasons”. Also goes against Rodha’s claim that Rennie the great manager still had the dressing room and Australia jumped the game.

Wisemantle’s family reasons explanation still stands. I’d expect he won’t travel - at least until the RWC.

 

[PhilClinton]

Yeh I mean it pretty much debunks the rumour that Wisemantle bailed once he heard Eddie was coming back. Looking forward to how this is twisted by some of the Eddie detractors here. Maybe he's holding Wisemantle's family hostage above a live volcano?