Ireland v Wallabies, Saturday 15/11 (Sunday morning Aus time)

[Wilson]

Also, Fardy was at the Force before heading to Japan and then coming back to play for the Brumbies so he was always in a higher professional setting...

He also wasn't some hidden gem that had been constantly overlooked, he took time and a significant mindset shift to develop into the test match player he ended up as.

 

[stillmissit]

How much Prem Club Rugby do you watch? There isn't instant effective Wallabies twiddling their thumbs down there.

Talent gets found and earns a shot. We love to talk about guys like Fardy who plugged away for years but that's an extraordinary instance. You see bench Super Rugby players go back to Club footy and brain it. Tells you what you need to know. Go ask a Force fan how well having Club level Props on the bench went for them last year or the Tahs the year before that.

How much Prem Club Rugby do you watch? There isn't instant effective Wallabies twiddling their thumbs down there.

Talent gets found and earns a shot. We love to talk about guys like Fardy who plugged away for years but that's an extraordinary instance. You see bench Super Rugby players go back to Club footy and brain it. Tells you what you need to know. Go ask a Force fan how well having Club level Props on the bench went for them last year or the Tahs the year before that.

I watch Gordon, Randwick and occasionally Easts. If your main argument is that pulling guys out of club rugby and sticking them in Super Rugby and watching them fail, then you are talking out of your arse. If you step up, you need a lot more training and understanding of the coaches plans. If you don't appreciate that, then there is little reason to discuss this with you.

How much senior rugby have you played? Your kind of talk of "we can't fix this" gives me the shits....

 

[Braveheart81]

There are many players who are average at school but become very good later on. I don't think any of these guys over 25 get a second look, particularly props.

We've seen a bunch of club rugby props play Super Rugby in the last couple of years due to injury crises (primarily at the Waratahs last year) and it wasn't at all pretty.

A major reason we don't see more older players from club rugby given professional contracts is that it makes no sense unless they're in the best 23 for that team (which is very unlikely).

There's no point investing in bottom of the roster players who are also older. You are trying to use most of those spots for young talent who are likely to become key players in the next couple of years.

 

[stillmissit]

Also, Fardy was at the Force before heading to Japan and then coming back to play for the Brumbies so he was always in a higher professional setting...

I thought Fardy was about the best backrower we had in Super Rugby before he went to Japan.

 

[stillmissit]

There's no point investing in bottom of the roster players who are also older. You are trying to use most of those spots for young talent who are likely to become key players in the next couple of years.

BH, You are talking like its 1997! We don't have a plethora of talent as the current Wallabies have proven over the last 20 years.

I had a season in NZ in the 70s and they had guys looking at all levels of other teams looking for talent that could step up, then I came to Australia and nobody gave a rats about anyone not in 1st grade or killing it in U20s. Talent can come from anywhere and all I am saying is that looking for it costs you little, not looking for it and it don't exist.

 

[Pfitzy]

Agree, I would be happier IF we had talent scouts pulling guys with talent out of Shute and Hospital comps.

A lot of these guys aren't up to pro rugby - they missed the Pathway Bus and didn't get the polish they need in terms of S&C and skills.

Look lower: we need to streamline and strengthen our junior ranks to make club rugby stronger through the age group, and that means changing the way schools and clubs work together from 13 through to 18 and onto Colts.

I was talking to someone about Sydney in particular, and they suggested it might be time to realign Juniors with Premier Clubs rather than having inherent breaks between Junior-School-Senior. It affects development, enjoyment, and cohesion.

 

[stillmissit]

A lot of these guys aren't up to pro rugby - they missed the Pathway Bus and didn't get the polish they need in terms of S&C and skills.

Look lower: we need to streamline and strengthen our junior ranks to make club rugby stronger through the age group, and that means changing the way schools and clubs work together from 13 through to 18 and onto Colts.

Agree with this Phitzy, as we have discussed before. I have stated my thoughts on talent ID, which I think is pathetic in Aus.

 

[Braveheart81]

I thought Fardy was about the best backrower we had in Super Rugby before he went to Japan.

From the zero Super Rugby games he played for the Force in 2008?

BH, You are talking like its 1997! We don't have a plethora of talent as the current Wallabies have proven over the last 20 years.

I had a season in NZ in the 70s and they had guys looking at all levels of other teams looking for talent that could step up, then I came to Australia and nobody gave a rats about anyone not in 1st grade or killing it in U20s. Talent can come from anywhere and all I am saying is that looking for it costs you little, not looking for it and it don't exist.

I would say there's never been a time where we have a better understanding of who is playing rugby at varying levels. Pretty much everything is videoed/televised now so it is very easy to scout players from juniors to club rugby to subbies.

I think you are kidding yourself if you think there are lower grade players and subbies players out there who are good enough to play test rugby but are just waiting for someone to spot them.

 

[stillmissit]

I would say there's never been a time where we have a better understanding of who is playing rugby at varying levels. Pretty much everything is videoed/televised now so it is very easy to scout players from juniors to club rugby to subbies.

BH, So people are pouring over tapes of games at all levels looking for talent? I call BS on that. If guys like Robertson are among the best props in Australia, then I'd like to see some thoughts on that. Around the mid 2000's Penrith (hardly world beaters) had a prop who, every time he played against Baxter, always handed him his backside. He was also quick around the field and had good hands, he didn't consider himself amongst the top 5 props in Shute Shield.

 

[Micheal]

It’s really not…

It’s his typical schtick of taking a contrarian position to drum up some clicks, but failing to compose a coherent argument to support that.

Jokeshop journalism.

The Roar is - and largely always has been - utter junk.

 

[stillmissit]

I think you are kidding yourself if you think there are lower grade players and subbies players out there who are good enough to play test rugby but are just waiting for someone to spot them.

What makes you so convinced that there isn't?

 

[JRugby2]

I don't see much talent being pulled out of Shute Shield. But it's not what gets picked, it is whether someone with an understanding of who has a possibility of stepping up. I think we pull players from schools and those who are put through some wider squads ie under 18s or colts. There are many players who are average at school but become very good later on. I don't think any of these guys over 25 get a second look, particularly props.

I did a fair bit of subbies rugby as a ref, and some guys were running around in those comps that could have stepped up, but nobody ever approached them. I remember a 10 playing for a southern suburbs subbies team, he was as good as any 10 I played with in my time in senior rugby. I asked him if he ever thought about stepping up, he said no club or person, apart from me, had suggested it.

I'm no selector, never had experience in it - so take all of this with a grain of salt.

Without applying this as an absolute blanket rule because of course there are exceptions, I feel that most players generally show whether they are made from the right stuff pretty early on, hence why we see the majority picked from schools and put through the pathways you've alluded to.

Without doubt a lot of players mature and get better with age but I would strongly doubt that they'd get so much better that they could make the step up. I know talent ID is labour intensive, so professional teams probably feel they are more likely to get a ROI by looking at younger talent, rather than club rugby. I know there are examples of older players getting a crack, but I think that would be the case in a larger, general sense.

No idea what your own eye for talent is like, but in the case of your subbies 10 example - I'm going to guess the answer to why he never got further opportunity is probably the obvious one; he probably wasn't actually good enough to.

 

[rugbyAU]

The Roar is - and largely always has been - utter junk.

Why do they get all the mail then?

 

[JRugby2]

Why do they get all the mail then?

Probably because they aren't junk and that's just the opinion of a few people?

 

[Braveheart81]

Why do they get all the mail then?

It's just Christy Doran and it's because he's one of a handful of full time rugby journos in Australia.

It's also only a small amount of actual "mail" and mostly making observations based on what they can see during open portions of training.

 

[Strewthcobber]

The real answer here is pro-clubs would rather pathway players with two years of pro-level strength and conditioning under their belt rather than semi-pro adults with zero years of it

 

[stillmissit]

All these arguments come down to winning or losing. If we are winning, there is enough money to retain some of our best.

If we are winning at a 60%+ level, we wouldn't be discussing this stuff.

 

[stillmissit]

The real answer here is pro-clubs would rather pathway players with two years of pro-level strength and conditioning under their belt rather than semi-pro adults with zero years of it

Agree but that ain't working for them as the Super Rugby results prove,. keep doing the same thing and you get etc etc. Someone needs to be innovative, our situation and results demand something different.
When I came to AUS we were a rugby basket case and then there was the battle of Ballymore, coached by Brockhoff, it hardened up our forwards and put into the minds of Wallabies that they could win. That heralded the successes of the 90s.

 

[JRugby2]

Agree but that ain't working for them as the Super Rugby results prove,. keep doing the same thing and you get etc etc. Someone needs to be innovative, our situation and results demand something different.
When I came to AUS we were a rugby basket case and then there was the battle of Ballymore, coached by Brockhoff, it hardened up our forwards and put into the minds of Wallabies that they could win. That heralded the successes of the 90s.

I'm not sure you can draw a straight line between us losing a test to the Lions in '89, us winning a little bit in the early then late 90's and there being a surplus of hidden gems uncontracted in club rugby.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Agree but that ain't working for them as the Super Rugby results prove,. keep doing the same thing and you get etc etc. Someone needs to be innovative, our situation and results demand something different.

I don't really understand what you want them to do differently?

as others have said we have had plenty of club plays in Super Rugby lineups over the years, with almost no success.

Doing something different for the Tahs would be to not play any more club props