National U/16 Championships 2012

[Inside Shoulder]

It's an automatic YC in Vic for a grass cutter tackle across the board and as it should be. Diving in with the shoulder at someone's knees is a poor act and the player deserves to be sat down.

Where's the illegality?

 

[George Smith]

It's an automatic YC in Vic for a grass cutter tackle across the board and as it should be. Diving in with the shoulder at someone's knees is a poor act and the player deserves to be sat down.

yep, and as such is deemed a "dangerous tackle" [10.4(e) in the Law book]. Nearly on all occasions it is executed without arms. It should be handled and dealt with the same as a "shoulder charge" (instead of to the opposing player's upper body it is at the player's knees)!

It should be a 'red card' offence with Judiciary Penalties of 1-3 weeks (low range) and 4-8 weeks (more serious or repeated offences).

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Is two yellow cards equal to a red similar to the SJRU competition?

Burkett would be missed in the Thursday game against the Reds, if also similar to the Juniors two yellows = 1 red = 1 game off automatic penalty.

With their loss today, the Juniors will need their A game on display if they are to have any way of topping the pool by beating Reds. In this event all the mathletes come to the fore as they work out for and against, most tries, who beat whom, etc.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

It's an automatic YC in Vic for a grass cutter tackle across the board and as it should be. Diving in with the shoulder at someone's knees is a poor act and the player deserves to be sat down.

Out of interest, is there different directions/guidance issued to referees state by state, association by association?

I would have thought that advice for automatic YC in Vic would also be the same as advice issued to all NSW refs, - Country, Subbies, Schools, Juniors, Womens, Shute Shield and Colts regardless.

 

[George Smith]

GS can you explain the tackle - I dont think I've seen it

The way that Tatafu Polota-Nau executes it is where an opposing player is running straight and he "dives" directly at the knees or shins. Many a time the player then flips in the air. The defenders head is also at risk as this often collides with the attacking player's knee rather than just the shoulder. Nearly every time Tatafu Polota-Nau does it he is prone on the ground himself for a few moments for 2 reasons. First he is slightly "concussed" or at least has hurt himself and secondly it gives the impression that he didn't properly execute the tackle and please excuse my clumsiness to the match officials!

 

[George Smith]

Is two yellow cards equal to a red similar to the SJRU competition?

Burkett would be missed in the Thursday game against the Reds, if also similar to the Juniors two yellows = 1 red = 1 game off automatic penalty.

With their loss today, the Juniors will need their A game on display if they are to have any way of topping the pool by beating Reds. In this event all the mathletes come to the fore as they work out for and against, most tries, who beat whom, etc.

You are right Huge, Burkett would be missed from any team.

In respect to 2 yellows = red that is an SJRU Comp Rule only. The ARU for this tournament correctly sees the yellow card as a means for assisting the ref to manage the game being played. SJRU incorrectly includes it for managing players over many games including the whole comp. This only goes to discourage refs from using the yellow card as they are afraid of the ramifications on the player and team.

Think of the situation where a ref has warned the team for repeated infringements and then the team does another in the 'red zone'. Often by a player who has never given a penalty all half. The ref then issues the player a yellow card (for the team). If that then is used as 2 yellow = red then that is incorrectly "penalising" that player for something that may have been just a silly error.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The way that Tatafu Polota-Nau executes it is where an opposing player is running straight and he "dives" directly at the knees or shins. Many a time the player then flips in the air. The defenders head is also at risk as this often collides with the attacking player's knee rather than just the shoulder. Nearly every time Tatafu Polota-Nau does it he is prone on the ground himself for a few moments for 2 reasons. First he is slightly "concussed" or at least has hurt himself and secondly it gives the impression that he didn't properly execute the tackle and please excuse my clumsiness to the match officials!

Ok - well I've seen enough of TPN to know that if I was his coach he wouldnt play again until he took that out of his reportoire

 

[Inside Shoulder]

You are right Huge, Burkett would be missed from any team.

In respect to 2 yellows = red that is an SJRU Comp Rule only. The ARU for this tournament correctly sees the yellow card as a means for assisting the ref to manage the game being played. SJRU incorrectly includes it for managing players over many games including the whole comp. This only goes to discourage refs from using the yellow card as they are afraid of the ramifications on the player and team.

Funnily enough I was sitting beside some refs yesterday and they were discussing this very issue

 

[Hugh Jarse]

...../snip/... If that then is used as 2 yellow = red then that is incorrectly "penalising" that player for something that may have been just a silly error.

Didn't Schmoo Mitchell get a Red card against the Darkenss a couple of years back for a similar sort of "silly error" or have I got it all wrong - like I usually do?

 

[George Smith]

Funnily enough I was sitting beside some refs yesterday and they were discussing this very issue

Hopefully in a positive way. Many refs (& coaches) do not differentiate the IRB Laws versus the Amendments to Laws within specific Comp Rules. SJRU has been guilty of having a page of amendments which confuses the crap out of players, refs and coaches involved in both school and club rugby.

I will also go further and say the Club Competition in Sydney also flaunt the IRB's intentions for Junior rugby pathways with many of its Comp Rules!

 

[en_force_er]

It's an automatic YC in Vic for a grass cutter tackle across the board and as it should be. Diving in with the shoulder at someone's knees is a poor act and the player deserves to be sat down.

Where's the illegality?

Whilst it is reasonably safe for the tacklee (but not the tackler) there is technically no arms in this type of tackle and thus it is deemed dangerous due to rules that are there to prevent shoulder charges.

That being said, I've never seen anyone carded for this in rugby even in Victoria.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Funnily enough I was sitting beside some refs yesterday and they were discussing this very issue

Aren't you teacher's pet then?

So will Burkett be sidelined or available for the feature match on Thurday?
Still a little unclear.

Seperately: If it is an illegal (and dangerous) technique , then one would hope that Junior Gold are not teaching "grass cutters" as someone has previously suggested.

I am on record here on other threads about TPN kamikaze playing style not being in his long term medical interests.

 

[George Smith]

Didn't Schmoo Mitchell get a Red card against the Darkenss a couple of years back for a similar sort of "silly error" or have I got it all wrong - like I usually do?

yes, BUT it was his second personal penalty for Foul Play and not the teams'.

Law 10.5 states: A player who has been cautioned and temporarily suspended who then commits a second cautionable offence within the Foul Play Law must be sent-off.

 

[George Smith]

Whilst it is reasonably safe for the tacklee (but not the tackler) there is technically no arms in this type of tackle and thus it is deemed dangerous due to rules that are there to prevent shoulder charges.

That being said, I've never seen anyone carded for this in rugby even in Victoria.

Mate, in Sydney we card them all the time! Have been doing it for many years now although hardly seen one this year (which is good). As said, this tactic is from League and I would be very surprised if you saw too many examples in Vic.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I get it now, with Mitchell it was his second YC in one game, that's why he got an early shower.

Obviously there is no "carried forward's" from game to game at that level.

Looks like NB should be OK for Juniors for Thursday then. I would be prepared to bet $1000 to a knob of goat droppings that the referee will be paying special attention to him in his next game though.

 

[Wood Rat]

It's an automatic YC in Vic for a grass cutter tackle across the board and as it should be. Diving in with the shoulder at someone's knees is a poor act and the player deserves to be sat down.

could be a cultural thing given the queer regional sport played in Vic does not allow "tripping"

If it's done arount a ruck or maul this could/would be considered deliberately collapsing these instruments

I dont know what gold squads are teaching, but I do remember Craig Wing saying his japanese club were doing "tackle below the Knees" as drills when he arived. Though I dont think they are world leaders in rugby technique

 

[George Smith]

I get it now, with Mitchell it was his second YC in one game, that's why he got an early shower.

Obviously there is no "carried forward's" from game to game at that level.

Looks like NB should be OK for Juniors for Thursday then. I would be prepared to bet $1000 to a knob of goat droppings that the referee will be paying special attention to him in his next game though.

The ref should referee "whats in front of him" and with no prejudice.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

Where's the illegality?

The laws state that you are allowed to:

tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.

And they also state you are not allowed to:

10.4(g) Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the
ball without trying to grasp that player

If I'm reading correctly, we are talking about the kind of tackle where a defender charges in (very low) shoulder first to hack at the ball carriers knees. "Grasping" has never occurred when I have seen them executed, so I think under the laws it qualifies as dangerous. Personally I think they are a bigger risk of spinal injury to the ball carrier than a spear tackle.

 

[Bruwheresmycar]

I am saying that the "cutter" technique doesn't comply with the laws.

IS wanted some references in law so I gave him some. The first reference was taken from Law 7 if anyone is interested.

 

[ytb]

How did rory vevers (winger) play?

 

[Sydneybra]

You don't normally go in with momentum into a grass cut. It's more of a tackle as where you get low on the balls of your feet and wait for the defender to come to you then at the last second you launch yourself at their knees/shins whatever