• Welcome to the Green and Gold Rugby forums. As you can see we've upgraded the forums to new software. Your old logon details should work, just click the 'Login' button in the top right.

Wallabies 31 Man Squad

Status
Not open for further replies.
Braveheart81

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Bowside said:
I seem to remember reading something about tendons and ligaments not being able to cope with larger than normal muscle mass. But I'm no expert on the subject.
Click to expand...

I think it works both ways.

Having bigger muscles allows you to exert more force on your joints whilst your ligaments don't get any stronger (i.e. pushing against resistence or changing direction more violently).

On the other hand, the muscles help stabilise the joint and act to lessen the impact on ligaments (i.e. if your quads/hamstrings weren't helping stabilise your knee and take a lot of the force, your knee ligaments would be under far more stress and be more susceptible to injury).

I think the one clear detriment to the extra muscle is that it adds weight and the more weight you're carrying, the more pressure you're exerting on your ligaments.

Some of the 'newer' injuries which have emerged in football like torn biceps and pectorals seem to be very much a result of people getting stronger and more muscly. These injuries were almost unheard of up until a couple of years ago.

I'm definitely no expert on this subject. My expertise begins and ends with my own knee injuries and keen interest in the medical side of that.
 
Richo

Richo

John Thornett (49)
I'm not at all medically knowledgeable, but I do know that some injuries are more likely as a result of fatigue and others unaffected by it. I would imagine something similar applies to muscle mass. Many players we think of as injury prone (Bernie, Barnes) are not at all muscular.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Scrubber2050 said:
Have real doubts as to whether Pocock will make it back to the level he once was - or maybe he won't be the absolute automatic selection he once was.

These 2 young blokes (Gill and Hooper) are gaining experience each week. Both bring different top level skills - Gill with the pilfer and hooper with his attacking game. Poey is/was a great pilferererer but IMO a shithouse runner.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree. Both of these players offer a lot more than Pocock does. Ultimately the guy is a super reliable, but limited player. He's essentially Pat McCabe at 7. He doesn't have the dominance in defence, not the powerful running and speed that Hooper does, whilst Gill is much quicker to the breakdown and therefore gets more pilfers too.
 
lewisr

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
Train Without a Station said:
I tend to agree. Both of these players offer a lot more than Pocock does. Ultimately the guy is a super reliable, but limited player. He's essentially Pat McCabe at 7. He doesn't have the dominance in defence, not the powerful running and speed that Hooper does, whilst Gill is much quicker to the breakdown and therefore gets more pilfers too.
Click to expand...


Under Deans Pocock will always be an automatic selection. He seems to like him as a captain and would favour the experience and age over Hooper/ Gilly. I personally think Gill and Hooper have now surpassed him as has been mentioned above but this is not the way of the current national coach.
 
gold heart

gold heart

Ted Fahey (11)
Train Without a Station said:
I tend to agree. Both of these players offer a lot more than Pocock does. Ultimately the guy is a super reliable, but limited player. He's essentially Pat McCabe at 7. He doesn't have the dominance in defence, not the powerful running and speed that Hooper does, whilst Gill is much quicker to the breakdown and therefore gets more pilfers too.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree they both offer much more together....but you can only play one openside at the same time right? :)

Lining them all up I think your forgetting how good pocock is really is and how he almost single handedlynwon us the 1/4 final against the boks in 2011.

I guess that probably stems from how truly blessed we are with 7's and spoilt for choice despite injuries.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Well Deans generally does like limited players so why wouldn't he be?
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
gold heart said:
Yes I agree they both offer much more together..but you can only play one openside at the same time right? :)

Lining them all up I think your forgetting how good pocock is really is and how he almost single handedlynwon us the 1/4 final against the boks in 2011.
Click to expand...

They individually offer much more. Neither gets blown off their own ball, both can pilfer. Gill can do it even better.

I'm not forgetting how good Pocock really is. I'm more than aware he is really good at one aspect of the game. These fellas are just as good as that and offer more in other areas. Gill is better at pilfering, whilst Hooper often leads successful counter rucks, however he doesn't get the stat for them so there is the perception he is only a strong runner. One could also say with his current record, Gill would have had a field day in the 2011 QF. One could also even say that Brussow being injured single handedly one us the game, as Lawrence reffed an open game at the breakdown, and his injury impaired SA's ability to capitalise on that like we did.
 
Scotty

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Train Without a Station said:
I tend to agree. Both of these players offer a lot more than Pocock does. Ultimately the guy is a super reliable, but limited player. He's essentially Pat McCabe at 7. He doesn't have the dominance in defence, not the powerful running and speed that Hooper does, whilst Gill is much quicker to the breakdown and therefore gets more pilfers too.
Click to expand...

What the hell are you smoking!!!!

Essentially the Pat McCabe at 7? What. Just what?
 
gold heart

gold heart

Ted Fahey (11)
I don't necessarily disagree with your comments but I do think that pocock is a better in tight and defensively than both of them ...no doubt hooper is better at running and gill is very good at pilfering.....the future for all three is bright .... But coming into the lions series I wish pocock is with us but he is not, so I am sure that both gill and hooper will stand up when needed
 
USARugger

USARugger

John Thornett (49)
Weight lifting strengthens tendons and ligaments, not the other way around. The issue lies in the fact that they are largely avascular whereas muscles clearly are not. Our genetic makeup never really compensated for modern nutritional and exercise regimes and as a result of this muscles can grow much faster than tendons or ligaments can. You see injuries like this is high school players who pack on huge amounts of mass in a short period of time. Since tendons/ligaments are not nearly as well 'fed' by the circulatory system they simply can't keep up and at that point muscles can potentially place undue stress on tendons/ligaments.

Elite-level trainers know this though and actively work to compensate for this as well as actively monitor it. When you see injuries in tendons and ligaments it is usually a result of impact or torque at an unfavorable angle (wasn't that how David did his knee?). I'm sure the Brumbies and Wallabies manage his workload pretty closely.

Even in elite weight-lifters the cause of these injuries is more often poor form or trying to use too much weight than it is a mechanical failure of the human body.

Richo Barnes looks like a gladiator next to Bernie - his quads are a walking tribute to modern sports science.

Pocock is the most defensively dominant of any open side in Australia. Hooper is faster but much weaker on the ground. Gill has a better linking game but isn't as strong as Pocock. Gill is not notably quicker to the breakdown than Pocock, that is just flat out wrong. Neither Hooper nor Gill are able to execute their pilferage like Pocock. He has impeccable form and unbelievable timing that allows him to 'break' teams. First Reds v Brumbies encounter in 2013 is a great example of this. He single-handedly stops the Reds attack in its tracks a few times. To compare him to Pat McCabe in any way is absolutely mad. He wasn't considered tied for first as the best open side on the planet for no reason.
 
Dave Beat

Dave Beat

Paul McLean (56)
USARugger said:
Weight lifting strengthens tendons and ligaments, not the other way around. The issue lies in the fact that they are largely avascular whereas muscles clearly are not. Our genetic makeup never really compensated for modern nutritional and exercise regimes and as a result of this muscles can grow much faster than tendons or ligaments can. You see injuries like this is high school players who pack on huge amounts of mass in a short period of time. Since tendons/ligaments are not nearly as well 'fed' by the circulatory system they simply can't keep up and at that point muscles can potentially place undue stress on tendons/ligaments.

Elite-level trainers know this though and actively work to compensate for this as well as actively monitor it. When you see injuries in tendons and ligaments it is usually a result of impact or torque at an unfavorable angle (wasn't that how David did his knee?). I'm sure the Brumbies and Wallabies manage his workload pretty closely.

Even in elite weight-lifters the cause of these injuries is more often poor form or trying to use too much weight than it is a mechanical failure of the human body.

Richo Barnes looks like a gladiator next to Bernie - his quads are a walking tribute to modern sports science.

Pocock is the most defensively dominant of any open side in Australia. Hooper is faster but much weaker on the ground. Gill has a better linking game but isn't as strong as Pocock. Gill is not notably quicker to the breakdown than Pocock, that is just flat out wrong. Neither Hooper nor Gill are able to execute their pilferage like Pocock. He has impeccable form and unbelievable timing that allows him to 'break' teams. First Reds v Brumbies encounter in 2013 is a great example of this. He single-handedly stops the Reds attack in its tracks a few times. To compare him to Pat McCabe in any way is absolutely mad. He wasn't considered tied for first as the best open side on the planet for no reason.
Click to expand...
George Smith is better than all three.
 
Dan54

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Before writing off Pocock, I would wait to see how Hooper and or Gill handle the Lions. I know Hooper went well in EOYT last year, I not convinced as yet he has game to handle big brutes week in week out that come in test rugby. Not knocking Hooper or Gill, just I have seen a lot of next great things over years, and I have noticed when these players don't meet the so called fans expectations how quickly they are torn down. I will jump on these 2 boys band wagon when they have played a few real tough tests, and come through in dominant fashion.
I will also say then of course that I could see they had it from day 1.

Edit: I agree with Dave Beat wholeheartedly!!!
 
Cosmo Jones

Cosmo Jones

Allen Oxlade (6)
Why is everyone writing off Pocock so quickly? Last year he was the best flanker in the world and now hes fallen behind 2 young and inexperienced players? Yes maybe he doesnt have the same pace and explosiveness as Hooper but the number of times i have watched him win a match-changing clutch turnover on our tryline when we need it most more than makes up for it. He has been one of the most reliable forwards in Aussie footy since he first put on the gold jersey. He is the man the boys turned to to get them out of trouble and his reliability and consistency cannot be denied. We need someone like Pocock and I wish he was fit for the lions tour.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
USARugger said:
Pocock is the most defensively dominant of any open side in Australia. Hooper is faster but much weaker on the ground. Gill has a better linking game but isn't as strong as Pocock. Gill is not notably quicker to the breakdown than Pocock, that is just flat out wrong. Neither Hooper nor Gill are able to execute their pilferage like Pocock. He has impeccable form and unbelievable timing that allows him to 'break' teams. First Reds v Brumbies encounter in 2013 is a great example of this. He single-handedly stops the Reds attack in its tracks a few times. To compare him to Pat McCabe in any way is absolutely mad. He wasn't considered tied for first as the best open side on the planet for no reason.
Click to expand...

Defensively dominant is a big call for somebody who doesn't actually make many dominant tackles. I'd go as far to say that I've seen Hooper make more dominant tackles in fact.

I can understand that there are games, conditions, etc. that Pocock would be better than either Hooper or Gill. For instance, a wet track against the Lions. But to consider Hooper or Gill any considerable distance behind Pocock does not give them enough credit.

I will agree with comments he is probably better in tight. Unfortunately he's not a lock, he's a flanker and an openside at that, who's job arguably is to be the best forward in the loose.

How is it mad to compare Pocock to a player who is strong in certain aspects, but offers less than others as an all round footballer? He has an average running game where he rarely breaks or beats tackles, is not a much of a big hitter and doesn't not show much of a link game. I think it would be absolutely mad to say he is not similar to a player who offers strong defence, a good crash ball and plenty of heart, however lacks ball playing ability and a strong skill level.

In Australia we consider him one of the world's best flankers. Doesn't make it true. To compare him to Richie McCaw is extremely one eyed and disrespectful to McCaw, a play who has the skill and ability to fill all backrow positions and offer what is required from those positions to aplomb.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top