Shute Shield 2013

[Hugh Jarse]

The Loyalty discount is an interesting concept. I support what it is trying to do, that is reward clubs for their investment in developing players, but perhaps it should be capped in some way. Like most regulations, the canny work out ways to turn things to their advantage.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Hugh, you make it sound like Uni just mind their own business, and through no fault of their own,All these schoolboy stars,and high profile Wallabies turn up unannounced looking for a game.
That's not how it happens.

The Uni "clipboards" were at the Schools champs, as were "clipboards" that I believe are associated with Wicks, Manly, Norths, Hobbits and Wests. I am not as well acquainted with the affiliations of the clipboards from the other clubs not mentioned, but if they weren't there then their bosses should be asking questions. Others have claimed to have spotted Mungo Scouts - I wouldn't know those if I fell over them.

Funny coincidence that many of the same clipboards were at St Lukes State Championships, and I will not be surprised to see some of them at Foreshaw Park on Sunday at the Juniors vs Country Gala day.

Some players are approached by club representatives, and some players approach clubs. Uni are no different to the others. They have build up a brand that they are fiercely proud of and aggressively market that. Most NSW Schools Opens players and Aust Schoolboys are approached by more than one club.

Try and tell someone from Rats, Wicks, Pirates etc that they are not fiercely proud of their brand, and that they should just wait until they are approached by players willing to play with their club. Uni are the same as all the others.

I just wish people would stop moaning about how good Uni have it, and channel their energies into making a difference at their club to reduce any competitive advantage that Uni may have.

Remember that less than 1/2 Aust Schoolboys go on to become professional Rugby players. There is still a fair bit to be done to the raw product by the clubs. Plenty of kids who didn't make the State Team as a schoolboy go on to be very successful in Grade footy.

 

[the coach]

The Loyalty discount is an interesting concept. I support what it is trying to do, that is reward clubs for their investment in developing players, but perhaps it should be capped in some way. Like most regulations, the canny work out ways to turn things to their advantage.

Clubs should still receive a loyalty discount for long term players but to write off 100% of the points applicable to Wallabies and Super players after 5 years just creates headroom for the club to sign more players which was not the intention. The discount was supposed to protect clubs (and players) from having to discard loyal players.

It has also been suggested that a points cap should be applied to players registered with the club in addition to those that take the field from week to week, and I think that is worth exploring.

There is a serious loophole that needs to be fixed and I know it's been pointed out to the NSWRU in the past. Several clubs have exploited the fact that only fresh reserves count in the points total by running on high points players in a lower grade match for 30 seconds. Under the points system the player is deemed to have "taken part in another match on the same day" and can therefore come off the bench in 1st grade without adding his points to the total. One club in the playoffs last year also took advantage of the fact that fresh reserves (in the playoffs) don't count in the total if the club didn't have a lower grade playing. They used this loophole to bring this high points imported player on for a zero points player who was named in the starting team after about 20 minutes.

Unfortunately the fact that the system hasn't been changed significantly since inception (apart from reducing the cap) suggests to me that the powers that be have lost interest in trying to make it work.

 

[I like to watch]

The Uni "clipboards" were at the Schools champs, as were "clipboards" that I believe are associated with Wicks, Manly, Norths, Hobbits and Wests. I am not as well acquainted with the affiliations of the clipboards from the other clubs not mentioned, but if they weren't there then their bosses should be asking questions. Others have claimed to have spotted Mungo Scouts - I wouldn't know those if I fell over them.

Funny coincidence that many of the same clipboards were at St Lukes State Championships, and I will not be surprised to see some of them at Foreshaw Park on Sunday at the Juniors vs Country Gala day.

Some players are approached by club representatives, and some players approach clubs. Uni are no different to the others. They have build up a brand that they are fiercely proud of and aggressively market that. Most NSW Schools Opens players and Aust Schoolboys are approached by more than one club.

Try and tell someone from Rats, Wicks, Pirates etc that they are not fiercely proud of their brand, and that they should just wait until they are approached by players willing to play with their club. Uni are the same as all the others.

I just wish people would stop moaning about how good Uni have it, and channel their energies into making a difference at their club to reduce any competitive advantage that Uni may have.

Remember that less than 1/2 Aust Schoolboys go on to become professional Rugby players. There is still a fair bit to be done to the raw product by the clubs. Plenty of kids who didn't make the State Team as a schoolboy go on to be very successful in Grade footy.

How many clubs approach current Colts players and offer them incentives to move?
How many clubs write to 16yo's?
The strongest club in the comp should not be stooping to these levels to maintain their dominance.

 

[It is what it is]

The flip side of Uni "hoarding" players is that an up and coming lad may end up frustrated playing in the 2's or 3's behind many rockstars when they know that they have a good chance of playing in the 1's and gaining experience and exposure that comes with playing at that level with another other clubs.

Last time I looked, Uni did not compel players to stay with them, and players are free to change clubs within seasons (with appropriate clearances) and are completely free to register with a different club at the start of the season.

To encourage loyalty, and to recognise the investments that clubs make in player development, there are player points "penalties" associated with a player changing clubs. I have no difficulty with that concept.

Other clubs just need to develop a programme (with similar number of fields, sports science, pools, gyms, full-time coaching staff, global sponsors and a university to educate the players) to attract and retain talent. Manly seem to have done so. Norths, Wicks and Hobbits are catching up. The Mighty Two Blues have made awesome strides with their Colts programme this year.

Uni have a sizeable head start, but what is stopping the other clubs getting off their bums and developing a product to rival the Students. - what's probably stopping them is not having a University, or hundreds of ex players bankrolling the club via their current employer's $$$.

Remember that Uni were very nearly tossed out of Shute Shield in the late 80's. The success that they are having now is due to the blood, sweat and tears, government/compulsory student funding and $$$, and grunt work that was done to bring them back from the precipice.


There are issues with how the Player Points system works, but little difference will be made if all we do is snipe at Uni and their "unfair advantage".

A few thoughts above.
The simple fact is that Sydney Uni have outgrown the Shute Shield and find themselves as 'tweeners'. They are without a competition befitting their level of professionalism to play in and are already frustrated by the seeming incompetence of rugby officials to create one.
Let's stop the BS, no one can compete with them for a player they want.

 

[Late Starter]

Clubs should still receive a loyalty discount for long term players but to write off 100% of the points applicable to Wallabies and Super players after 5 years just creates headroom for the club to sign more players which was not the intention. The discount was supposed to protect clubs (and players) from having to discard loyal players.

It has also been suggested that a points cap should be applied to players registered with the club in addition to those that take the field from week to week, and I think that is worth exploring.

There is a serious loophole that needs to be fixed and I know it's been pointed out to the NSWRU in the past. Several clubs have exploited the fact that only fresh reserves count in the points total by running on high points players in a lower grade match for 30 seconds. Under the points system the player is deemed to have "taken part in another match on the same day" and can therefore come off the bench in 1st grade without adding his points to the total. One club in the playoffs last year also took advantage of the fact that fresh reserves (in the playoffs) don't count in the total if the club didn't have a lower grade playing. They used this loophole to bring this high points imported player on for a zero points player who was named in the starting team after about 20 minutes.

Unfortunately the fact that the system hasn't been changed significantly since inception (apart from reducing the cap) suggests to me that the powers that be have lost interest in trying to make it work.

Because this club in question was not Uni, not a lot was said about it; in fact you are choosing not to name them now. However if it was Uni then I can only imagine the outrage that would have ensued.

I'll go back to my point before about all the Super players mentioned having played for Uni before they became professional. If you want a change to the loyalty discount rule then I might suggest the following:

The loyalty discount applies for 1 point per year and after 5 years a full deduction applies; however any deduction only reduces the player's points allocation to the level it was when they first joined the club, and not to 0. Therefore the aforementioned Mr Pulver's son could never be worth fewer than 6 points. If he were to go on to higher honours as a result of the investment made in him by his club, they would not be overly punished for this investment if there was no loyalty discount. However they would not benefit for the investment in the player's career prior to joining the club if the loyalty did not reduce his points below the level when he first joined the club.
There may have to be some tweaking of the actual point allocation but that seems to be a pretty fair and equitable system to me.

It probably doesn't disadvantage Uni enough though....

 

[Late Starter]

How many clubs approach current Colts players and offer them incentives to move?
How many clubs write to 16yo's?
The strongest club in the comp should not be stooping to these levels to maintain their dominance.

Stooping to what levels? They're identifying talent and trying to attract that talent to their club. If other clubs aren't doing that then they should be. It's almost as though you expect Uni to stop and say "actually we've won enough games now, we'll give someone else a go instead."

 

[wamberal]

The Shute Shield will die out sooner or later. It has become a joke of a competition, frankly. Perhaps the answer is to have a continuing five team competition for the full-time professional players after Soup is finished.

 

[rugbyvet]

Everyone always argues that other clubs shouldn't whine about Sydney Uni but they should look to replicate or better the Super Uni model. The problem is no other club has the resources to compete or replicate the model. Is there any other club that could afford several full time rugby coaches? And strength and conditioners?

 

[I like to watch]

Offering Colts players from weaker clubs a financial incentive to move is a shit practice.Who do they think they are going to play against in 10 years time if they can only get stronger by poaching from the weaker clubs?
I think it is objectionable that they contact any 16 yo with a view to recruiting them two seasons in the future.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I have heard of Sydney Uni attracting players to Green Shield cricket (although, when you think about Green Shield they shouldnt even have a team in that comp) and I know that Canterbury Juniors were treated as Uni juniors and that Uni sent rep teams to state champs a few years ago.
Does Uni offer fee relief of any sort to recruits?

 

[boyo]

It has to be noted that Uni' were in second division (before SS was only one division).

Also many Wallabies played for Randwick (many wallaby players from out of Sydney seemed to choose Randwick).

We seem to have entered the world of Daz's avatar.

 

[the coach]

Because this club in question was not Uni, not a lot was said about it; in fact you are choosing not to name them now. However if it was Uni then I can only imagine the outrage that would have ensued.

I'll go back to my point before about all the Super players mentioned having played for Uni before they became professional. If you want a change to the loyalty discount rule then I might suggest the following:

The loyalty discount applies for 1 point per year and after 5 years a full deduction applies; however any deduction only reduces the player's points allocation to the level it was when they first joined the club, and not to 0. Therefore the aforementioned Mr Pulver's son could never be worth fewer than 6 points. If he were to go on to higher honours as a result of the investment made in him by his club, they would not be overly punished for this investment if there was no loyalty discount. However they would not benefit for the investment in the player's career prior to joining the club if the loyalty did not reduce his points below the level when he first joined the club.
There may have to be some tweaking of the actual point allocation but that seems to be a pretty fair and equitable system to me.

It probably doesn't disadvantage Uni enough though..

The club was Southern and in several matches they named Marcus Heather (0 points) in the starting team and then replaced him with Tim Metcher (10 points) after a short period to stay under the points cap.
They didn't break any rules, but I maintain they did exploit an unintended loophole. I raised the issue with the NSWRU at the time and also posted it on the Shute Shield 2012 Forum.

I think your proposed change to the loyalty points has merit and is worth thinking about.

Unfortunately it won't happen because, as I said earlier, nobody seems to be interested in refining the system anymore.

Re your closing comment....this is not about attacking Uni. It's about spreading the talent more evenly so we have a sustainable product to offer sponsors and develop players. I can't believe anyone who really has rugby in their heart sees any benefit to the game in Uni beating Penrith colts2 108-0 and that's just one example of the type of score line that has other codes laughing at rugby.

 

[Late Starter]

Yes I know if was Southern, I also pointed it out on the 2012 thread.

I realise Coach that this is not about attacking Uni for you, however the same can't be said for some of the other participants on this forum. Anyway, I do agree that there is no benefit to the game in Uni Colts beating Penrith 108-0 and this was with only 50 minutes of game time. However as you said, there seems to be no interest in refining the system; unfortunately there seems to be little interest in developing the Shute Shield at all.

But that's another topic altogether.....

 

[Dave Beat]

Uni's system - good luck to them, there structure has worked and now they are rewarded. They built and constructed the core of this team. That being said I don't agree with Folau going there.

Last year I think Southern were the stronger team in the final, their points were high because they attracted players without developing players through a system - I think it was Southern that was involved in the Salary Cap scandal that disappeared.

2011 a good team beat the Super 15 University side,

Let's see what plays out this year.

I like the points system it means you cultivate the club.

We have some great games coming up, I don't think all the University players with Super Contracts should have them I think there are players within the Shute that could be knocking on the doors and with Cheika in at the Tahs, and Hill moving on from the Rebs there might be changes when contracts finish.

 

[Iluvmyfooty]

Uni still are the level all clubs should be trying to emulate and in recent years i believe some are doing that.

Looking at Souths side this week and Manly's there is a fair sprinkling of super talent through both clubs. Other sides like Eastwood also sem to be very strong.

In Colts no club can match uni's depth given who they attract and the general University community they have to draw on. However, in the 1's over the past couple of years Uni have been challenged (Norths last year and Manly this year). I believe this year that Manly will win Colts 1 further highlighting the good work Manly have done in lifting their game.

From this I believe that to some degree Uni's dominance is slowly being challenged by the other clubs

 

[qaz]

I have a few thoughts here.

No other club can compete with what Uni can offer as It is what it is and rugbyvet alluded to above. The fact is, they will always attract ambitious schoolboy superstars who have already been identified to fast track into the U/20s, academies and Super 15. I am sure some of these schoolboys seek out Uni and Uni seek out some of these schoolboys.

The issue I have is what these players get out of playing for Uni in the current situation. These schoolboy superstars dominate at school (probably playing for the best side - Newington, Joeys etc and are probably physically advanced). They then go on to dominate the colts comp at uni where they regularly put at least 50 points on sides and might get 2-3 genuine tough matches a year. They look a million dollars and get into the 20s and/or academies. They eventually graduate to uni grade teams where surrounded by other star players, they also succeed and continue looking like great players and eventually get picked up by a S15 side. Yes, they have been exposed to other professional players, a professionally run training program and high level S&C.
But, since school, chances are they have hardly played a tough game and been challenged. All of a sudden they have a S15 contract and are lining up again McCaw, Carter etc - a totally different kettle of fish

i think this sort of scenario has been the reason why some players have taken a while to find their feet at the next level.
For example, Luke Burgess probably never played behind a pack that went backwards during his colts and early grade career at uni - all of a sudden, behind a struggling S15 pack, he struggled to find his feet.
Luke Jones has started realising his potential this year and late last year, however he has been on the books of S15 franchises before that and it took him a while to get going at the next level. Jeremy Tilse has been on the waratahs books for about 8 years, but has never been comfortable in S15, while he looks great at Uni with 7 other good forwards around him picking off weaker packs

The Shute shield is our 3rd tier. It is in the best interests of all the aus S15 provinces to have an equal competition where players are exposed to tough, character defining matches.

 

[It is what it is]

Excellent post qaz

 

[the coach]

Qaz, I especially like your last paragraph!

 

[Rugby Is My Life]

On the money Qaz - really good post.

I admire the structures Uni have put into place to get the incredible results they've had over the last 5-10 years - it's something many professional league, union, football, cricket, etc clubs should use as a template.

However not many other rugby clubs have access to quality sports fields, world class medical & training facilities as well as options study wise all on their door step. Add into the mix SEVERAL full time rugby coaches and suddenly regardless of the player talent - you're already in front.

One thing I'm sick & tired of people attached to Uni saying is there are no scholarships offered - it's absolute BS. They may not be referred to as scholarships in annual reports, etc but every man & his dog knows it happens whether it be full/part time financial assistance.

The thing is players/parents know this, so decide to play colts at Uni, complete their degrees without astronomical HECS bills awaiting them on graduation day, before going on to play grade at other Sydney clubs.