3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[RugbyFuture]

The key difference with soccer was that they already had the junior clubs and fans there, they just had no-one to follow. Rugby has the added problem of needing to establish itself in many of these areas. While we can apply the western Sydney banner to a whole area, there are many who are quite parochial about their part of it. You've already correctly identified the Hills and people I know in the Cambelltown area and Liverpool area are crying out for a major sporting code to base themselves there. They really resent the fact that they used to have Wests RL play out of Orana Park and in the merge with Balmain, they now get 4 games (usually the ones that won't draw a crowd at Leichhardt or the SFS).

if you're to split the west into ditricts and try and etablish it in sections there's actually 5 areas in the western suburbs, maybe 6, so you're going to exclude the parra region, penrith region, hawkesbury region, blacktown region, bankstown region to have two teams, one based in the hills where the middle class rugby supporters already exist and another based in campbelltown to get a few rugby league supporters on side? seems stupid to me. Take risks for sure, but logic has to be applied to risk taking, they project to lose 5 million, not 10. Howabout we try and make a strong western suburbs team that can harvest the support from the wider community through deep community engagement? not have 2 weak teams with displaced professionals playing for no pride but purely monetary senses. For one thing parramatta and granville have the large islander community linked with TPN who don't support as much as they can, that needs to be leveraged and not ignored for some dreamy haze of two teams in the west.

For once I'd like to see rugby take the initiative and make a positive move. I'm actually surprised by the "it'll never work", "let's play it safe" do as little as possible thoughts on this thread. Rugby is planning to LOSE $5 million on this in the first year with decreasing LOSSES for the following 4, to MAYBE break even after 5 years. If you're going to spend that money you want to go for it and come out at the end with something to show for it. Not just a glorified status quo with teams based on the north shore/northern beaches, south east and a token western team, which really represents the already rugby areas of Eastwood/Hills.

Nothing lasting or worthwhile has ever been achieved by playing it safe with the low risk, wait and see how it goes approach.

There are certainly people around the rugby community like this, but I think you're misinterpreting logical and slow paced progress for conservatism and toff brigade saluting. Its a long term goal to get into the hearts and minds of western sydney, That can't be achieved by parachuting people and professions into areas in one foul swoop. certainly have a plan to expand but otherwise you will crash and burn for the sake of not having patience.

 

[Quick Hands]

You've missed the point, I don't want the team based in the Hills, but having 1 team in the west makes this more likely as there would be no competition for them. North West and South West have always been my options. You may not have read all my posts.

A few league supporters with kids like Israel Folau onside in the south west? You bet I want them playing rugby.

I wonder what happened to Israel? 12 months ago lots of rugby types on these threads said:
1. He should spend the year playing Shute Shield
2. He'd never make the Waratahs 22 let alone the run on sude
3. He'd never be able to comprehend the complexities of rugby
4. No way should/would he make the Wallabies
5. He might be able to bluff is way through on the wing, but no way could he play fullback

That's the sort of negativity I'm talking about.

Basing a 3rd tier team in Sydney's south west is actually the most cost effective way of establishing a presence there. You're going to have to spend the money if you're serious about expanding the base of the pyramid.

 

[wamberal]

Basing a 3rd tier team in Sydney's south west is actually the most cost effective way of establishing a presence there. You're going to have to spend the money if you're serious about expanding the base of the pyramid.

Is it? I wonder. It is easy to make this sort of assertion, very difficult to prove it. Complex factors come into play.

Start with this question: are all three mooted Sydney franchises going to be totally owned by the ARU, or is there a possibility of private equity involvement? Private ownership is much likelier in areas where the game is already popularly supported, and there is an active grassroots, community, involvement.

Franchises that are planted in established rugby areas will attract bigger crowds (and hopefully, memberships) and even sponsorship - partly because the established rugby areas are wealthier. Revenues will be lower if one of the franchises is planted in an area where our game is less well supported and where, coincidentally, incomes are probably lower anyway.


Don't get me wrong, I have spoken many times about the importance of our game reaching out to the vast areas of Greater Sydney that are totally underutilised, and under-represented. I am simply questionning whether planting a franchise in a totally unprepared and underdeveloped area is the best way to grow the game.

The AFL are said to be spending $100 mill on the Greater Western Sydney Giants. And the majority of that goes to development, I would imagine.

With our limited budget, maybe we have to think about putting development resources into existing rugby clubs in the South West first, and build up the game from the grass roots.

And a couple of the existing established clubs need to start thinking about adopting growth areas - not for the sake of poaching, but for the sake of growing the game. I'd like to see that (but I don't suppose I ever will).

 

[Train Without a Station]

Basing a 3rd tier team in Sydney's south west is actually the most cost effective way of establishing a presence there. You're going to have to spend the money if you're serious about expanding the base of the pyramid.

So all the kids are going to rush to rugby because some niche competition with no history has a team based there?

The teams won't be a direct competitor with the Eels, Panthers, Wanderers and Giants to start with. But also the presence of these teams isn't the only aspect in increasing junior development. It's probably the least important. The money spent on junior development, clinics, school presence, etc. is.

It's not like these teams are going to be representative of their region either. They'll draw from wherever the best players are. You're making it sound like theirs 500,000 junior Israel Folau's sitting around in Blacktown and only not playing rugby because they don't have a 3rd tier team to play for in their quest to be a Waratah.

 

[Quick Hands]

Is it? I wonder. It is easy to make this sort of assertion, very difficult to prove it. Complex factors come into play.

Start with this question: are all three mooted Sydney franchises going to be totally owned by the ARU, or is there a possibility of private equity involvement? Private ownership is much likelier in areas where the game is already popularly supported, and there is an active grassroots, community, involvement.

Franchises that are planted in established rugby areas will attract bigger crowds (and hopefully, memberships) and even sponsorship - partly because the established rugby areas are wealthier. Revenues will be lower if one of the franchises is planted in an area where our game is less well supported and where, coincidentally, incomes are probably lower anyway.


Don't get me wrong, I have spoken many times about the importance of our game reaching out to the vast areas of Greater Sydney that are totally underutilised, and under-represented. I am simply questionning whether planting a franchise in a totally unprepared and underdeveloped area is the best way to grow the game.

The AFL are said to be spending $100 mill on the Greater Western Sydney Giants. And the majority of that goes to development, I would imagine.

With our limited budget, maybe we have to think about putting development resources into existing rugby clubs in the South West first, and build up the game from the grass roots.

And a couple of the existing established clubs need to start thinking about adopting growth areas - not for the sake of poaching, but for the sake of growing the game. I'd like to see that (but I don't suppose I ever will).

Yes, I agree with much of what you say, but isn't it easier to put development resources in when you have a 3rd tier team playing in the area? With players who would be available to assist in the process. They won't be full time, but they will have some time to play a development/promotional role.

The younsters that we're trying to attract will have a senior team to relate to, instead of the current situation where we run one off local gala days in primary schools, but there's no local junior team for the boys to register and play for. There's a story in today's paper how much merchanise the WS Wanderers soccer team sell. Rugby won't get the same numbers as soccer, but people will only buy merchandise and support teams if they feel some emotional ownership. Having the 3T team based there, with players having a presence will go a long way towards that. I think this will also make it easier to start local junior clubs as there would be a rugby presence in the area, which if it had any foresight would do all it could to facilitate the process.

Player, coach and admin payments are the same no matter where the team is based. Some of your other expenses might even be less in the south-west as local government in those areas tend to be proactive in attracting things to their turf. From what Pulver has said, the ARU will either directly fund the teams as in the ARC or indirectly fund them with a grant.

 

[Quick Hands]

It's not like these teams are going to be representative of their region either. They'll draw from wherever the best players are. You're making it sound like theirs 500,000 junior Israel Folau's sitting around in Blacktown and only not playing rugby because they don't have a 3rd tier team to play for in their quest to be a Waratah.

That's the point, they don't have a quest to play for the Waratahs because they have no junior club to play for so they all play league.

Doesn't have to be 500,000, that's a totally ridiculous statement. Don't you think there would be a reasonable number of boys in that region who could play rugby at 3T level or higher if they actually had a junior club to play for when they were in primary school?

I'd suggest the bigger waste of resources in running one off gala days when the participants have no team to play for if they want to play rugby. It's a bit like running a business and giving away free samples and when someone wants to buy your product, you haven't built the factory yet.

No one has said that the team would be in competition with league or soccer, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. It's about having a bona fide rugby presence in the area, something that youngsters in the area might support and play for. To be a success, rugby only needs to have the same ratio of league to union as the rest of the city - yes that means we won't be taking over the west, it just means that at least we'll have our part of it.

 

[Rugrat]

Don't get me wrong, I think a third tier would be great for Australian rugby I just think that it needs to cater for 'grassroots" rugby". I am president of The mighty Cunnamulla Emus and I think, (I mean my committee thinks) a team should be based in my region which represents the true heartland. We have no money but Sydney Uni and the ARU should give us some money and some players too. Also I am convinced Bundy rum will sponsor us cause I meet a bloke the other day that agreed with me that they just might. We want everyone to travel to Cunnamulla for games as we have top facilities including a can bar and the best NBN network connection for live streaming of games. I ( I mean our committee) think also that all other teams should reserve places for kids from the country. How else will the game grow unless my sons all 15 of them (I mean kids of the committee) get a game. We can rename the team the wider Cunnamulla area Emus so that it doesn't favour my team from a representation point of view. Just don't include those bastards from The Cunnamulla goannas because even though they keep winning the Jackie Howe cup they are shit blokes and cant play rugby. cheers

 

[wamberal]

Yes, I agree with much of what you say, but isn't it easier to put development resources in when you have a 3rd tier team playing in the area? With players who would be available to assist in the process. They won't be full time, but they will have some time to play a development/promotional role.

Again, I am simply pointing out the complexities of a decision like this. What about the potential for offsetting revenues - a franchise in a developed area is certain to attract far more spectators and sponsors in all likelihood.

The younsters that we're trying to attract will have a senior team to relate to, instead of the current situation where we run one off local gala days in primary schools, but there's no local junior team for the boys to register and play for.

It's a bit chicken and egg, isn't it. If there are no junior teams, where are they going to come from? Having a franchise in the area is better than nothing, but I would say it is not much better than nothing, and it would be comparatively expensive.

The Wanderers are doing well because soccer is, and always has been, a very popular sport in Western Sydney. The Giants are going to struggle for a long time, but of course the AFL has very deep pockets.


Our sport is not popular, and our pockets are shallow. That is why we have to be smarter than the average bear. That is all I am saying.


The only smart idea I have is for two or three of the financially successful Sydney clubs to adopt an area, one should adopt Campbelltown, for example. Maybe Penriff and Parra should also be adopted, if that is what would give them some impetuts. We have to start realising that we are at war, and the enemy is not ourselves!

 

[Done that]

Short and sweet this morning boyo.

I think Uni could stand alone, and there are a couple of clubs not far behind who could make a real good fist of it.

Probably a lot of reasons why this wouldn't work but I'd like to see Sydney Uni representing west and they must include players from Parra, and Penrith in the 23 - I have that thought only for development reasons, not for anti Uni reasons

We have a club competition already.Why have another?In particular , most non Uni supporters would say the competition is iniquitous as it stands, & ultimately ruinous of the Shute Shield.Promoting Uni to a 3rd tier is fine providing that they then do not remain in the Shute Shield as well.
.If they do play in both competitions , then I assert that they would become even stronger than they currently are, & the consequent results for the
Shute Shield should be obvious to all.The same thing would apply to other Shute Shield clubs playing alone in the 3rd tier competition or some associated competition.
Third tier teams should have a new identity,ideally one with which sectors of the community can identify e.g. teams which represent geographic areas, rather than existing clubs.
Obviously there are a few posters here who see the third tier discussions as an opportunity of promoting their own club , perhaps without saying as much .
Such suggestions ,if successful ,would not be in the interests of Rugby as a whole or serve to develop the code nationally,as it would simply make some teams stronger at the expense of others.

 

[Dave Beat]

We have a club competition already.Why have another?In particular , most non Uni supporters would say the competition is iniquitous as it stands, & ultimately ruinous of the Shute Shield.Promoting Uni to a 3rd tier is fine providing that they then do not remain in the Shute Shield as well.
.If they do play in both competitions , then I assert that they would become even stronger than they currently are, & the consequent results for the
Shute Shield should be obvious to all.The same thing would apply to other Shute Shield clubs playing alone in the 3rd tier competition or some associated competition.
Third tier teams should have a new identity,ideally one with which sectors of the community can identify e.g. teams which represent geographic areas, rather than existing clubs.
Obviously there are a few posters here who see the third tier discussions as an opportunity of promoting their own club , perhaps without saying as much .
Such suggestions ,if successful ,would not be in the interests of Rugby as a whole or serve to develop the code nationally,as it would simply make some teams stronger at the expense of others.

My post wasn't clear, I don't want them standing alone I think they should be in the topical "western area" but that area / team must include players from other clubs as well so it's also development. What I did say difficult and there would be reasons not to do it. As said some clubs could have a crack and make it work, but I don't think that will be the best approach.

 

[Quick Hands]

It's a bit chicken and egg, isn't it. If there are no junior teams, where are they going to come from? Having a franchise in the area is better than nothing, but I would say it is not much better than nothing, and it would be comparatively expensive.

The only smart idea I have is for two or three of the financially successful Sydney clubs to adopt an area, one should adopt Campbelltown, for example. Maybe Penriff and Parra should also be adopted, if that is what would give them some impetuts. We have to start realising that we are at war, and the enemy is not ourselves!

But, having a 3T team and local gala days will help you start the local junior clubs. Use the infrastructure of the 3T franchise to help. We're only talking 6s-9s at first.

I'd like to see Syd Uni run the south-west franchise and put their resources into where rugby really needs it. They could maybe use their star recruit Israel Folau. The other 3 Sydney franchises would pretty much naturally go with NE (Manly, Warr, NS & Gor), SE (ES, R & SD) & NW (Ew, WH, Par & Pen). I'm not necessarily suggesting that those clubs run the 3T franchises, but there is a natural affinity if they all manage to get together with the greater good in mind. Successful 3T benefits the locals and the locals provide supporters to the 3T.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

That's a pretty dismal picture. Are you sure that there is a net deficit of $10 mill a year, or are the losses offset by additional revenues, for example, from the broadcaster?

Uncle Bill told a meeting of all SRU club Presidents that the ARU have been propping up both Rebels and Force to the tune of $5million each and intend to continue that propping. Hence, all funding support of Premier Rugby, juniors etc need to take a hit to allow them to do so.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

Aus have started to play some good footy again over the last 4-5 months - after a terrible few years.

certainly did last night.

Though the effect (or lack thereof) of Simmons and Horwill still concerns me. Was good to see Kane Douglas get on and make a difference when he was out there. Horwill IMO just gives away stupid penalties for 80 mins. Simmons can't hold the ball in contact and clearly is unaware of the laws of the game.

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

It remains to be seen what the structure & identity of participating teams will be in the proposed new competition.If individual teams from the Shute Shield & Brisbane comps.
for example, are invited to partticipate, then the likely consequence would be that aspiring & ambitious players would more likely want to play for that club
as it would increase their chances of further honours , & in so doing would leave their current club thus making the club competition even more polarised than it currently
is.To exclude Sydney Uni & Sunnybank for example from their respective club competitions however ,leaves them with no competition in which to participate for much
of the normal season.It would seem logical therefore, to not include individual stand alone clubs in the proposed competition.

Glad my post generated some feedback, both in support and against it. That is life. Lord knows I'm no expert. Enjoyed reading the differing opinions.

I'd be more than happy for the teams to be region based, i.e. only teams from Sydney being North Harbour, South Harbour and Western Sydney. My reasoning for suggesting that Sydney Uni be one of the clubs to stand alone is solely based on the fact they have a large number of people in very high positions within the game who all appear to be trying to exert influence in their favour.

Either way doesn't concern me, but to avoid any player drain as suggested by @thierrydusatoir then any stand alone club should not be allowed to compete in a lower level competition IMO.

I'm WAY more concerned though that the brains trust at the ARU are going to allow (read fund) teams from Perth and Melbourne while those respective Super Rugby franchises are costing every single grass roots club in Sydney and Brisbane support from the national union. I just simply cannot see the financial logic behind a decision to throw more money at regions who are already pouring $ down the drain.

Sadly though, Rob Clarke and Uncle Bill are great mates................

 

[BellyTwoBlues]

Yeah i want to know were u got this 5million figure from and not just "its well known"

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk 2

see previous post @gaffachino

 

[wamberal]

Uncle Bill told a meeting of all SRU club Presidents that the ARU have been propping up both Rebels and Force to the tune of $5million each and intend to continue that propping. Hence, all funding support of Premier Rugby, juniors etc need to take a hit to allow them to do so.

I would be very surprised if Pulver was not drawing the worst possible scenario. Typical of an incoming CEO, of course.


I would like somebody to ask him what the nett effect of the Rebels and the Force is on the bottom line - is the $10 million offset by revenues that would not otherwise accrue, for example, more lucrative broadcasting revenues?

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm WAY more concerned though that the brains trust at the ARU are going to allow (read fund) teams from Perth and Melbourne while those respective Super Rugby franchises are costing every single grass roots club in Sydney and Brisbane support from the national union. I just simply cannot see the financial logic behind a decision to throw more money at regions who are already pouring $ down the drain.

Sadly though, Rob Clarke and Uncle Bill are great mates......

The hide of them to fund the teams that assist in bringing in the major revenue source (broadcast agreements), whilst also growing the game, and not funding the clubs instead...

 

[ChargerWA]

Uncle Bill told a meeting of all SRU club Presidents that the ARU have been propping up both Rebels and Force to the tune of $5million each and intend to continue that propping. Hence, all funding support of Premier Rugby, juniors etc need to take a hit to allow them to do so.

Force made $402K in 2011, lost $271K in 2012 and lost around $200K in 2010.

I don't know if anyone has seen the ARU or Force/Rebel statement to prove this $5M transfer between organisations. The Super club would have to treat it as income to be able to report the loss/profit they have made and the ARU would have to report it as an expense. Maybe one of the accountant types around can look at the ARU financial report to look for any evidence of this transfer.

Otherwise if I was the Pulveriser going to break bad news to the SRU club Presidents, I would find someone on the other side of the country to blame too.

 

[Dave Beat]

I'm WAY more concerned though that the brains trust at the ARU are going to allow (read fund) teams from Perth and Melbourne while those respective Super Rugby franchises are costing every single grass roots club in Sydney and Brisbane support from the national union. I just simply cannot see the financial logic behind a decision to throw more money at regions who are already pouring $ down the drain

Agreed on the financial side there!!
But on the park, are they fielding their Super side minus the 1 or 2 Wallabies they have, or are players returned to their respective states and they take this as the opportunity to develop their stocks and grow the rugby base?

 

[Dave Beat]

I'd be more than happy for the teams to be region based, i.e. only teams from Sydney being North Harbour, South Harbour and Western Sydney. My reasoning for suggesting that Sydney Uni be one of the clubs to stand alone is solely based on the fact they have a large number of people in very high positions within the game who all appear to be trying to exert influence in their favour.

Thought as much, a bit of insider trading it sounds like.

Yeah I'd love to see Manly stand alone, and it possibly could - BUT - the structure your suggesting Nth / Sth / West there is no reason all clubs shouldn't be on board and promote it. It will give their aspiring players something to strive for.