3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[Dave Beat]

Yep and that is why I think having colts and grade would be a fantastic idea

 

[Quick Hands]

The problem with the generic term "western Sydney" is that it isn't defined. It's highly subjective and very much in the eye of the beholder.
Some people consider Eastwood as western Sydney, others Concord, others Parramatta and on and on it goes. We could all spend months arguing about where western Sydney is and never agree.

This is precisely why I only use it as a generic term to describe the area which has basically neglected by rugby administrators for decades. I prefer SW Sydney and NW Sydney for areas needed to be supported and developed.

I don't agree with the proposition that you start with 8 and build to 10. This would only make sense if the extra 2 were going to be Perth and Melbourne because it is their inclusion that brings in the big expense.

If for example your 8 teams were Sydney/Brisbane/Canberra, adding Perth and Melbourne would greatly increase your costs. On the other hand if your 8 teams already include Melbourne and Perth, adding another 2 from Brisbane and Sydney (1 each) doesn't increase your costs by much at all. (I'm not advocating the exclusion of Melbourne and Perth, I'm simply using the examples)

It ain't going to go from 8 to 10, once it's 8 it'll stay as 8 and a once in a generation opportunity will be lost.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I don't agree with the proposition that you start with 8 and build to 10. This would only make sense if the extra 2 were going to be Perth and Melbourne because it is their inclusion that brings in the big expense.

I'd argue it would make sense if you wanted to ensure there was an adequate concentration of talent to ensure the quality was maintained at a level which would ensure the best development of players.

Start with 10 teams, when we already allegedly have less playing depth and instantly our third tier is significantly inferior to the ITM & Currie Cups in quality, and the development it provides to players. I thought we wanted to provide a similar breeding ground to these two competitions.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The problem with the generic term "western Sydney" is that it isn't defined. It's highly subjective and very much in the eye of the beholder.
Some people consider Eastwood as western Sydney, others Concord, others Parramatta and on and on it goes. We could all spend months arguing about where western Sydney is and never agree.

This is precisely why I only use it as a generic term to describe the area which has basically neglected by rugby administrators for decades. I prefer SW Sydney and NW Sydney for areas needed to be supported and developed.

I don't agree with the proposition that you start with 8 and build to 10. This would only make sense if the extra 2 were going to be Perth and Melbourne because it is their inclusion that brings in the big expense.

If for example your 8 teams were Sydney/Brisbane/Canberra, adding Perth and Melbourne would greatly increase your costs. On the other hand if your 8 teams already include Melbourne and Perth, adding another 2 from Brisbane and Sydney (1 each) doesn't increase your costs by much at all. (I'm not advocating the exclusion of Melbourne and Perth, I'm simply using the examples)

It ain't going to go from 8 to 10, once it's 8 it'll stay as 8 and a once in a generation opportunity will be lost.

Western Sydney isn't a generic description to those who live in Western Sydney. It's something they identify with and acknowledge. There's very much a feeling that Sydney is effectively is two distinct cities in one. That's why the Western Sydney Wanderers work so well with many Sydney FC fans switching allegiances to the Wanderers as they represent their Sydney.

As for the number of teams. We need to look toward creating a competition of the highest possible quality while providing a fair degree of opportunity to players outside the professional ranks. Ten would likely be two teams too many to begin with and we should be looking to use this model as a means to develop a truly national competition.

That's why I suggested that they only move to expand once the first generation of JGC participants mature. Furthermore, when they choose to expand it further, it should only be one team at a time. The reasoning is that eventually we want to have strong development pathways for all the participants in the major centres including Adelaide where a JGC centre is located and should/must be maintained.

 

[Quick Hands]

Western Sydney isn't a generic description to those who live in Western Sydney..

Please give me the precise geographical boundaries that go with the term so we all know.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'd argue it would make sense if you wanted to ensure there was an adequate concentration of talent to ensure the quality was maintained at a level which would ensure the best development of players.

Start with 10 teams, when we already allegedly have less playing depth and instantly our third tier is significantly inferior to the ITM & Currie Cups in quality, and the development it provides to players. I thought we wanted to provide a similar breeding ground to these two competitions.

But Australia is completely different to SA and NZ. In both those places rugby is the major winter sport. In Australia the competition has to fulfil many different roles. It has to try to consolidate rugby in Melbourne and Perth, cater for the rugby heartland and I would also argue expansion in the 2 biggest rugby markets in the country (Sydney and Brisbane). SA and NZ don't have to worry about any of that and don't have to factor it in to their decision making process. We do, unless of course people are content to see rugby in Sydney heavily concentrated on the north shore, northern beaches, south-eastern suburbs and inner city.

Rugby in Australia faces challenges that no other major rugby nation faces. Not only do we compete with soccer, but we also compete with league and Aussie rules and we're smallest of the 4.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Please give me the precise geographical boundaries that go with the term so we all know.

Everything west of Strathfield, everthing south of the M2 extending north only to include Richmond and everything west of the Shire. In terms of outliers to Western Sydney both the Macarthur region and the Blue Mountains can be counted.

 

[p.Tah]

Everything west of Strathfield, everthing south of the M2 extending north only to include Richmond and everything west of the Shire. In terms of outliers to Western Sydney both the Macarthur region and the Blue Mountains can be counted.

On the border we need signs that say, 'Welcome to the West. Please leave your elbow patches here.'

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

But Australia is completely different to SA and NZ. In both those places rugby is the major winter sport. In Australia the competition has to fulfil many different roles. It has to try to consolidate rugby in Melbourne and Perth, cater for the rugby heartland and I would also argue expansion in the 2 biggest rugby markets in the country (Sydney and Brisbane). SA and NZ don't have to worry about any of that and don't have to factor it in to their decision making process. We do, unless of course people are content to see rugby in Sydney heavily concentrated on the north shore, northern beaches, south-eastern suburbs and inner city.

Rugby in Australia faces challenges that no other major rugby nation faces. Not only do we compete with soccer, but we also compete with league and Aussie rules and we're smallest of the 4.

I think three teams in Sydney is the appropriate number for now and into the future as long as any Western Sydeny team looks to form bounds with the outlying regions. The whole Syd South West region means very little to those who live there. As far as they are concerned they live in Sydney's West.

What we need to do is produce something of high quality in the short term and look to only expand when we have a glut of talent capable of playing at that level in one or more locations.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

On the border we need signs that say, 'Welcome to the West. Please leave your elbow patches here.'

Followed by - " Can you feel the diversity"

 

[Jets]

I think just one grade to start with. You can grow it in the future.

There seems to me to be a lot of backwards thinking in regards to this National Comp. If a club is happy to pay it own way to enter surely that would take some financial pressure off the ARU. If a team want to be in the National comp then why should they be punished and the clubs that aren't capable of doing it rewarded by gaining all their other players?

 

[Jets]

And this has to be taken into account too.

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-tier-with-108m-injection-20131123-2y2j5.html

 

[Gibbo]

If it doesn't include private ownership as an option they are kidding themselves.

 

[wamberal]

If it doesn't include private ownership as an option they are kidding themselves.

The reverse is probably true, unfortunately. Do you anybody who would put the money up for a totally unproven competition?


If you do, send me their name, I have a slightly used Harbour Bridge that they might be interested in buying.

 

[Train Without a Station]

But Australia is completely different to SA and NZ. In both those places rugby is the major winter sport. In Australia the competition has to fulfil many different roles. It has to try to consolidate rugby in Melbourne and Perth, cater for the rugby heartland and I would also argue expansion in the 2 biggest rugby markets in the country (Sydney and Brisbane). SA and NZ don't have to worry about any of that and don't have to factor it in to their decision making process. We do, unless of course people are content to see rugby in Sydney heavily concentrated on the north shore, northern beaches, south-eastern suburbs and inner city.

Rugby in Australia faces challenges that no other major rugby nation faces. Not only do we compete with soccer, but we also compete with league and Aussie rules and we're smallest of the 4.

I agree for ultimate growth of the game we need to strive to compete. But it would be extremely foolish to think we can do it from the ground up. The NRL and AFL were built from a city comp into National comps after 80 years of existence of the competition, and then over 20 years. Even now the AFL is the only one that has a truly national presence.

Looking to build from too many teams in one region both dilutes support and also leaves the comp if it is successful open to both the NRL and AFL's issues of unsustainable teams in the heartland.

The USA is the region to look at for successful sport. The professional franchises have to compete with college sport which is heavily supported by alumni. Does any city have more than two teams in any of the 4 major sports? Yet we think Sydney requires a minimum of 3? Would it not be wiser for the teams to cover larger regions?

The NFL manages to be able to get by with the Jets and the Giants the only New York teams don't they?

 

[Gibbo]

That is the silly thing, passionate (irrational) benefactors is what keeps fledgling clubs alive

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[Quick Hands]

I agree for ultimate growth of the game we need to strive to compete. But it would be extremely foolish to think we can do it from the ground up. The NRL and AFL were built from a city comp into National comps after 80 years of existence of the competition, and then over 20 years. Even now the AFL is the only one that has a truly national presence.

Looking to build from too many teams in one region both dilutes support and also leaves the comp if it is successful open to both the NRL and AFL's issues of unsustainable teams in the heartland.

The USA is the region to look at for successful sport. The professional franchises have to compete with college sport which is heavily supported by alumni. Does any city have more than two teams in any of the 4 major sports? Yet we think Sydney requires a minimum of 3? Would it not be wiser for the teams to cover larger regions?

The NFL manages to be able to get by with the Jets and the Giants the only New York teams don't they?

I'm not talking about competing directly with AFL or NRL, that won't happen in my lifetime. What I'm alluding to is the fact that rugby in Australia has to consider more than just one issue of what's the best competition in terms of talent. We have to consider expansion and consolidation in non-traditional rugby areas. SA and NZ don't have non-traditional rugby areas to worry about.

In relation to NFL in New York, the Jets and the Giants play in their 1st tier competition, how many teams do you reckon New York would have in its 3rd tier? Ditto for other sports in the US; 1st tier 1 or 2 teams per city, but below that many more. With respect, you're comparing a 1st tier with a 3rd tier, so it's not really a valid comparison.

 

[Quick Hands]

Everything west of Strathfield, everthing south of the M2 extending north only to include Richmond and everything west of the Shire. In terms of outliers to Western Sydney both the Macarthur region and the Blue Mountains can be counted.

That's about what I would of thought the boundaries are, but I was just checking.

An area sadly neglected by rugby administrators. To me this 3rd tier is a once in a generation opportunity to do something to correct that.

 

[Hawko]

Please give me the precise geographical boundaries that go with the term so we all know.

Everything west of Strathfield, everthing south of the M2 extending north only to include Richmond and everything west of the Shire. In terms of outliers to Western Sydney both the Macarthur region and the Blue Mountains can be counted.

I have previously suggested boundaries of Parramatta, Campbelltown, Blackheath and Windsor. While trying to be culturally sensitive there are some real socio-economic differences between most of western Sydney and the good residents of Strathfield. Likewise, people from the Hills do not identify with those down on the plains at all! I could best describe the split between Eastern Sydney and Western Sydney as a split between upper middle class and above and lower middle class and below. As always, these are approximations, but the poor are being hunted out of the inner west as property values mean only the well off can afford to buy. The less well off are heading west. Realistically the eastern border starts off around Windsor running down Windsor Road to Lidcombe, then running down through Lakemba, to the Georges River and Campbelltown.

The population centre is somewhere between Blacktown and Horsley Park and if you're looking for a place to centre the operation Blacktown is ideal because of the railway hub with connections to the mountains, Parramatta, Liverpool and Campbelltown.

If we are trying to "win the west", people in the Hills are not a good fit and will feel uncomfortable at the home ground even if they are wearing "Rams" colours. Where they do fit is problematic, my choice would be Sydney North. Its a long way from the Hills to Manly Oval and I would suggest having North Sydney Oval as the Sydney North home ground. I would look to securing Kogarah Oval for Sydney South.

Crowds of up to 10,000 would be great, but realistically they will take time (years) to build to that. Given that Shute will be over by this time, the rusted on fan will be looking for a rugby fix and the NRC will be attractive. So crowds of 5,000 to start are not impossible with some good marketing and sharp pricing.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I have previously suggested boundaries of Parramatta, Campbelltown, Blackheath and Windsor. While trying to be culturally sensitive there are some real socio-economic differences between most of western Sydney and the good residents of Strathfield. Likewise, people from the Hills do not identify with those down on the plains at all! I could best describe the split between Eastern Sydney and Western Sydney as a split between upper middle class and above and lower middle class and below. As always, these are approximations, but the poor are being hunted out of the inner west as property values mean only the well off can afford to buy. The less well off are heading west. Realistically the eastern border starts off around Windsor running down Windsor Road to Lidcombe, then running down through Lakemba, to the Georges River and Campbelltown.

The population centre is somewhere between Blacktown and Horsley Park and if you're looking for a place to centre the operation Blacktown is ideal because of the railway hub with connections to the mountains, Parramatta, Liverpool and Campbelltown.

If we are trying to "win the west", people in the Hills are not a good fit and will feel uncomfortable at the home ground even if they are wearing "Rams" colours. Where they do fit is problematic, my choice would be Sydney North. Its a long way from the Hills to Manly Oval and I would suggest having North Sydney Oval as the Sydney North home ground. I would look to securing Kogarah Oval for Sydney South.

Crowds of up to 10,000 would be great, but realistically they will take time (years) to build to that. Given that Shute will be over by this time, the rusted on fan will be looking for a rugby fix and the NRC will be attractive. So crowds of 5,000 to start are not impossible with some good marketing and sharp pricing.

When I mentioned Strathfield I wasn't including as part of Western Sydney. Though, I will say not all of Western Sydney is as soci-economically challenged as many assume.

Blacktown would be an interesting choice but in terms of centrality properly a decent choice if appropriate facilities exist. A Western Sydeny team would probably do well to spread the games around in the major centres within the region.