3rd tier is back in 2014 [Discontinued]

[Quick Hands]

I don't get the perception that Sydney is deserving of more teams than Brisbane. Last time I checked the Premier Comp was a lot more competitive than the Sydney Uni dominated Shute Shield.

Just saying, it's a perception that's always bugged me..carry on.

Wow, that's the first time I've heard that one.

 

[RugbyFuture]

Quick hands, I applaud your dreaming, but I think from a business case you are wrong and the a-league model has proved itself. I do think you need to target alternative options, but I think the whole comp is that and you need to make that strong first. all the cases you cited already had a comp with money to spend or where incredibly stoic about placing new teams. Lets make the comp happen first before throwing people into the wind.

 

[Schnarper]

I Am quite surprised they went this way. It seems to be quite an expensive option to take given the existing (reported) financial situation the ARU has. Almost has an air of "all in" desperation.

The brisbane and sydney club comps appeared to be the perfect breeding ground of organically growing the Australian competition.

Creating something completely new is not only very expensive, it also creates another fracture in the already broken landscape that is Australian rugby. Growing the 3rd tier through the evolution of the club scene just seemed logical.

I can't really recall many successful competitions that have been created out of nothing in the modern era without reference to the existing competition at the time, but I could be massively wrong on that point (I haven't paid close enough attention tbh).

On a supporter not, who do I go for??? Ballymore team 1 or ballymore team 2? Home and away and identity do actually mean something if you want people to buy the jerseys, buy the memberships, attend all the games and pay to watch the matches. And the local match ups can generate the most intense feelings.

Not saying the NRC is terrible, just having trouble really seeing it as the best option.

Oh well.

I agree. I can't see why you would want to dilute and potential destroy club rugby in Sydney & Brisbane. Further why create more brands to confuse people. We already have too many - multiple clubs, Super 15 teams and the Wallabies. Surely we need to get people attached and following their club throughout a full and proper season, not a mish mash of multiple unconnected short series.

 

[Schnarper]

I agree with you and I've long argued for a greater rugby presence in western Sydney which is why I have argued for teams in both NW and SW Sydney. I would say however, that while Eastwood itself and TG Millner Field aren't truly western Sydney, the Eastwood junior catchment extends into what could be described as western Sydney. The boundary between Parramatta and Eastwood JRUs isn't as logical as one would think. For example North Rocks JRU is affiliated with Eastwood, but Dundas Valley is affiliated with Parramatta - even though North Rocks is further west than Dundas Valley.

In short, no way would I base a team at Millner and call it western Sydney (or at Concord for that matter). Parramatta Stadium makes some sense because of its facilities. The Showground at Homebush rather than the Olympic Stadium could also be an option and I'm sure there are other grounds in that region of which I don't have specific knowledge.

For the SW Sydney team, Orana Park at Cambelltown hosts 4 NRL games a year and the locals there really resent that fact that the Tigers play most of their games a Leichhardt or the SFS. Try and get in there, get the local council onside, St Gregs are really getting into rugby. For once let's show some foresight instead of saying how hard it is in western Sydney (I'm not saying you hold these views)

If we're going to spend money on this, it has to be used to get into western Sydney. The Pulveriser is happy to lose $5 mil in the first year at least let's try to get some bang for our buck.

Why not focus on supporting South Africa's push to move to Super 18 and have Australia's 6th team based in Western Sydney and for it to be a JV with Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

We could then have a full 17 round Super Rugby comp (each team plays each other once - with a final 8) and take on NRL and AFL. The season could go from February to July/August leading to the internationals

 

[Schnarper]

What is our fucking hard on over 10 teams all about?

The Currie Cup Premier Division has 6 teams, the ITM Cup Premiership has 7 teams, yet we seem to think our equivalent should have 10 teams when we need to allow additional import concessions for 2 of our Super Rugby teams?

8 teams is pushing it. 6 would be ideal for the best concentration of talent.

Fuck pushing into new areas, fuck talking about providing more spots to compete with NRL and AFL for talent. Get a quality comp up and running that provides a platform for the next tier of players who aren't Super Rugby contracted to compete at a higher level than club rugby. We're looking for the best club players, not providing so many roster spots that a lot of average club players are picked up.

I agree with your view not supporting a 3rd tier with 10 teams. However I don't agree not to expand into new areas. We do need to expand and grow the base and market share of rugby.

My view is simple just work off Super Rugby. Support SA rugby in their desire to grow the Super comp to 6 teams each. Use this to have Australia's 6th team become. JV team with Fiji, Samoa & Tonga and base this team in Western Sydney.

 

[ChargerWA]

Why not focus on supporting South Africa's push to move to Super 18 and have Australia's 6th team based in Western Sydney and for it to be a JV with Fiji, Samoa and Tonga.

We could then have a full 17 round Super Rugby comp (each team plays each other once - with a final 8) and take on NRL and AFL. The season could go from February to July/August leading to the internationals

^^Because NZ don't want a 6th team.

 

[Schnarper]

Based on what's been attributed to the Pulveriser in the newspapers, he wants to provide a pathway in Canberra, Perth and Melbourne as well as servicing the rugby strongholds of Sydney and Brisbane. He's not concerned about losing money in the first 2-3 years, so expanding into non-traditional rugby areas is also on the agenda. If he's been quoted correctly, he's saved $3.5 mil in wages at head office & players and another $2.5 mil closing Syd & Bris academies.

That being the case, the best 10 team competition that I could see would be:
Perth
Melbourne
Canberra
Sydney North East (based on northern beaches/north shore)
Sydney North West (based eastwood/parramatta)
Sydney South East (rand/east/SD)
Sydney South West (based at Cambelltown)
Brisbane North
Brisbane South

This leaves one team open - either 2nd team in Canberra, or 3rd in Brisbane, or in another place that people smarter than me can come up with.

Unfortunately lose money he will. His strategy will seriously dilute an already fragmented market and be a loss maker for no outcome. The ARU needs to support grassroots rugby at the club level as a feeder system and then support South Africa's bid to go to an 18 team Super Rugby tournament. That way the ARU and State's can focus on building the 5 existing Super Rugby brands and get some loyalty and following and then work through a JV with Fiji, Tonga & Samoa for the 6th team.

 

[Slim 293]

I don't get the perception that Sydney is deserving of more teams than Brisbane. Last time I checked the Premier Comp was a lot more competitive than the Sydney Uni dominated Shute Shield.

Just saying, it's a perception that's always bugged me..carry on.

It's nothing to do with perception..........

Sydney definitely has the greater competition and more player numbers.........

That's then followed by Brisbane, then Canberra.........

And then daylight...........

 

[Schnarper]

I would love to see the ARU go all out to make inroads into the islander kids who should be playing rugby, but are being snaffled by the other code (as my schoolboy days coach put it).

So would I!!!
But if they do make a fist of it, get to Super Rugby, and then get selected by their Island nation there is discussions in the Rebels thread that they then become a marquee player - the ruling is very vague.
So there for we need to have the same rule as NZ with regards to the islanders - they do not fall under the Marquee Player structure.

This can be achieved by basing a JV Super Rugby team in Western Sydney. These players would under contract retain their eligibility only for their home nation. South Africa desperately wants a 6th team. By doing this we can help make the new Super 18 Rugby comp. A full season comp with the capacity to take NRL and AFL head on.

 

[Schnarper]

^^Because NZ don't want a 6th team.

I'm sure NZ could come to the table if the right broadcasting agreements and revenues could be reached. A full season product will have significantly more marketing and exposure.

 

[No.8]

5 months?

Aus have started to play some good footy again over the last 4-5 months - after a terrible few years...

 

[Train Without a Station]

I agree with your view not supporting a 3rd tier with 10 teams. However I don't agree not to expand into new areas. We do need to expand and grow the base and market share of rugby.

I'm not against expansion, but it should be well considered based on potential demand, not pushing out immediately for the sake of it. Do the hard work developing a following for a comp based on 6 teams then follow an organic growth path. In time the top clubs would be able to strive to become a part of it in their own right.

My view against it is for the competition's inception. Let's get it started. Then grow.

 

[Rugby Central]

Old teams, new teams, it doesn't matter. As long as they represent exisiting Clubs and tribalism, it will get the support. As long as each team is comprised of the clubs in their geographical area, fans will be willing to support that team. And, heaven forbid, it will create an easily identifiable pathway from School to Club to 3rd Tier then Super and National Representation.

Make the teams from random players from any old side and the community won't connect and players will leave when over looked for imports.

If the pathway is the plan...YAY!!!! If it's to rehash the ARC, get stuffed and give back the money my Club contributes to the governing bodies.

 

[Dave Beat]

Could the 3T please include grade and an U21 colts team. It will provide a link in the chain so U18, U19, U20 don't drift to other codes or loose interest.

 

[Hugie]

I think some are being too dismissive of a Country team in NSW and Qld. I think that the Country teams would have some very solid advantages that the city teams would find hard to match.

1. The country teams already have established brands and tribal loyalties (we hate the City).
2. They have established sponsors and corporate connections. Rugby in the bush is very well connected to regional business. There are many cashed up businesses in the bush that want to build good will with local communities e.g. coal mines, CSG, ADM etc.
3. The home games could be moved around by local communities "pitching" for the game. Country local communities are much better at that than City communities. You would have no trouble getting 5000+ to each home game as it may only occur once a year in that community (say Wollongong, Newcastle, Coffs, Dubbo, Townsville, Gold Coast, Rocky etc.). This is $100,000+ gate takings per home game, plus $100,000+ in further sales (@$20/person). I think the City teams will struggle to get 5000+ to all of their home games.
4. There are many good grounds in the bush that can handle 10000+ crowds.
5. The local media (TV and papers) would lap it up, as they often struggle for local news content.
6. Some TV advertisers may want to target the Country game, cattle drenches, herbicides, truck and machinery sales. Thus giving FOXTEL some extra market spread.
7. There is no reason why the country teams couldn't reside and train in Sydney and Brisbane. The criteria for being a country boy could be that you visited the country once, or you've seen a cow, or you once did some hard work. The team would be made up the same way any of the other teams are put together, some Soups, some club player and some country players.

I think that NSW Country and Qld country are well placed to move quickly from a standing start, and are in a better position than most city teams.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Creates a logistical issue.

We're talking about struggling to draw crowds when they are in a higher population concentrated area already.

Most country grounds aren't set up for broadcasting.

If players live in the city, suddenly the home games cost the same as an away game.

I'm not against the idea, but I think the comp should start small and both get the key areas and the ones which can efficiently be picked up immediately and if country governing bodies want to have a team, let them come to the table and prove how they can make it work once the comp is in place.

 

[mudskipper]

Travel costs are a killer... It needs to be realistic or it wont happen... I foresee the same issue with WA and Vic in the start up years...

 

[Jets]

I agree with your view not supporting a 3rd tier with 10 teams. However I don't agree not to expand into new areas. We do need to expand and grow the base and market share of rugby.

My view is simple just work off Super Rugby. Support SA rugby in their desire to grow the Super comp to 6 teams each. Use this to have Australia's 6th team become. JV team with Fiji, Samoa & Tonga and base this team in Western Sydney.

Why would the ARU do this? They want to grow rugby in Australia and produce more Australian eligible players.

Also this comp has to be separate from the Super B comp played earlier in the year. I think an 8 team comp would work well as you could have 4 games a weekend. Friday night, Saturday arvo, Saturday night and Sunday arvo.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Been away for a few days so have had some catching up to do. First of all, any country entrant from NSW will need to be one of the Sydney centric country unions. In terms of the one who'll likely be the most competitive then it would be Newcastle/Hunter followed by the Illawarra and then Central Coast. Newcastle would be the only viable one of the three.

Second, it should be no more than 8 teams to start. In time the goal should be to move to 10 in line with the first generation of participants in the JGC hitting maturity. The teams are obvious, 3 in Sydney (North, Sydney and West). Two in Brisbane, Canberra, Melbourne and Perth.

Western Sydney is a must. At it must look to engage the outlier regions as well .i.e. the Macarthur region (note: Campbelltown isn't in Western Sydney) In terms of the Macarthur, the two junior clubs have strong junior numbers but the region has very little playing opportunies outside that. There are a lot of players who play League who would gladly play both and yes, we're talking about kids like Folau.

 

[suckerforred]

I would hope that the existance of a 3rd tier would stop some of the younger player drift. Why? They will have a pathway infrount of them rather than have to rely on sheer luck.

For my two cents I like the idea of 'rep' sides based in geographical areas. I don't think that you can/should include existing prem clubs as this will just result in more bad blood. Yep looking at Sydney Uni & the rest of the SS teams.