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Argentina v Australia II @ 5.10am 14/08

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Viking

Mark Ella (57)
To be fair he did have the skillset for a solid 10, even from a leadership point of view. How was anyone suppose to know he was going to start crabbing all the time.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Crabbing as bad as Beale and one of the poorest in-play kicking games ever to grace the Brumbies.

He had excellent games at 12 when Bernie was the 10. Anybody would.
 

stillmissit

Chilla Wilson (44)
His early rewards has been for those runs, we have a habit for rewarding non complete players with incredible non core skill and then lamenting what they don't do the non core skills well - but he is a beast when he does his work

Pure speculation, but has there been any scuttlebutt out of the Reds camp re the Thorn\Tupou issues?

From a distance Thorn seems a coach who wants units to get the basics under control before they consider the fancy stuff
fattie, It strikes me that the Aust media and those on the fringes of RU get really wound up when a prop does a big run or makes a break. That ain't what props are for (as you know) and we need to stop rewarding poor props because they are good at a poor imitation of a centre.
I was doing some (poor) coaching at Penrith and one of the decent props told me that all the good props in Shute Sheild could; work over Al Baxter but couldn't catch him if he ran.
 

stillmissit

Chilla Wilson (44)
nope, if there is no oppertunities for a contract to they are 24 - 25, they will end up in France, England, Japan or League. Your kidding yourself if you think this will work.

EDIT:- You didn't say 16 to 18 either you said let them go play senior rugby till their 24 - 25.
I agree Tomikin these claims are like a throwback to the 90's when we had the talent to choose from. These days our player numbers are dropping and in state schools, it has become invisible. I have said many times we need more and better talent ID and early starts for obvious talent and a fine eye for late developers.
At the moment we seem to be doing little to nothing ie #10's....This is predicated on the understanding that the Wallabies are our paramount concern.
 

stillmissit

Chilla Wilson (44)
Identify young talent, offer them some form of contract - but they don't go directly to a Super Rugby squad unless they are absolute freaks (and even then go back to Club Rugby if they are not up to it). Instead they have to go and prove themselves in QPR or Shute Shield level Rugby against men for at least one season, demonstrating that they have the skills and the physical attributes to play regularly in first grade against men (and dominate). Then, and only then, do they get a crack in the Super Rugby squad. This also helps grassroots Rugby.
Totally agree Serge. I'd like to add that we should keep their gym work to a minimum. I have seen several talented youngsters go into the academy where they are muscled up and the extra weight and power is too much for their ligaments, hammies etc and they lose speed and break down during a game.
 

stillmissit

Chilla Wilson (44)
Pretty certain playing 10 was what Giteau preferred
Coaches should not give a stuff what position players want. They should play where the coach thinks they are best at and stick at it until they are good in that position. Q. could we have made a good enough 15 out of Hodge?
 

The Ghost of Raelene

Mark Ella (57)
I was doing some (poor) coaching at Penrith and one of the decent props told me that all the good props in Shute Sheild could; work over Al Baxter but couldn't catch him if he ran.
I'd believe it.

As soon as Props could run with him at Super and Test level he was a laughing stock. The fact he played 69 Tests shows what a hole we were in with Front Row.

P.s Don't talk yourself down
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
fattie, It strikes me that the Aust media and those on the fringes of RU get really wound up when a prop does a big run or makes a break. That ain't what props are for (as you know) and we need to stop rewarding poor props because they are good at a poor imitation of a centre.
I was doing some (poor) coaching at Penrith and one of the decent props told me that all the good props in Shute Sheild could; work over Al Baxter but couldn't catch him if he ran.
The key development program for juniors is the NSW & QLD private school programs, neither comp is going to reward a pot plant who's goal is to dominate his opposing prop, the mobile unit is rewarded

So most of the "young" props coming through need to be taught how to scrummage and learn they must give up those runs as a key indicator of performance because they will be physically shattered from being a prop

The expectations of Tupou's ground game need to be lowered and his scrummaging and pillar work rewarded (and he is a bloody good prop)

If he can be the absolute rock at scrum time we need and not miss tackles, anything else is a bonus
 
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Derpus

George Gregan (70)
The key development program for juniors is the NSW & QLD private school programs, neither comp is going to reward a pot plant who's goal is to dominate his opposing prop, the mobile unit is rewarded

So most of the "young" props coming through need to be taught how to scrummage and learn they must give up those runs as a key indicator of performance because they will be physically shattered from being a prop

The expectations of Tupou's ground game need to be lowered and his scrummaging and pillar work rewarded (and he is a bloody good prop)

If he can be the absolute rock at scrum time we need and not miss tackles, anything else is a bonus
I'm no expert (on the contrary) but I've seen games where Tupou appears to absolutely dominate at scrum. Doesn't seem to have been happening lately.

Is this an attitude thing, or are his opponents adjusting? Why is his scrumming effectiveness seemingly diminished?
 

The Ghost of Raelene

Mark Ella (57)
Is he playing below 100% fitness? I know a lot of players are at this point of the year but he came off a couple injuries throughout the year.

He's also come up against the Argies who always have a good scrum and Ellis Genge who is one of the dominant front rowers in the world at the moment. I like how he's travelling. It doesn't ring the alarm bells for me just yet.
 

Tomthumb

Colin Windon (37)
I'm no expert (on the contrary) but I've seen games where Tupou appears to absolutely dominate at scrum. Doesn't seem to have been happening lately.

Is this an attitude thing, or are his opponents adjusting? Why is his scrumming effectiveness seemingly diminished?
He can dominate scrums due to his size and strength. His technique is found wanting when he cant overpower his opponent

He is not great at head positioning to keep the loosehead from getting under him, and even angles in sometimes exposing his ribs more
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
If he can be the absolute rock at scrum time we need and not miss tackles, anything else is a bonus

The second one needs a level of athleticism though.

I think it's definitely true that there are club rugby props who are better scrummagers than Super Rugby and test props and that has been the case for a long time.

There is a far greater necessity to be able to catch, run and pass in the professional game than club rugby where being a reliable pot plant who does nothing other than set piece is still passable and doesn't get exploited.
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
I'm no expert (on the contrary) but I've seen games where Tupou appears to absolutely dominate at scrum. Doesn't seem to have been happening lately.

Is this an attitude thing, or are his opponents adjusting? Why is his scrumming effectiveness seemingly diminished?

Head space has an impact in any position on the rugby field. I also suspect that in a fair contest there are few props who match him when he is together. Kidology though can leave him frustrated. He seems to have gradually picked up on some stuff, not done too well himself in implementing it, and continues to be be outfoxed when he is not on his game.

It would be interesting to hear from a scrum doctor a little closer to the action.
 
D

DELETE ACCOUNT

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The second one needs a level of athleticism though.

I think it's definitely true that there are club rugby props who are better scrummagers than Super Rugby and test props and that has been the case for a long time.

There is a far greater necessity to be able to catch, run and pass in the professional game than club rugby where being a reliable pot plant who does nothing other than set piece is still passable and doesn't get exploited.
catch, run and pass are basic skills that can be learnt and honed.

To be brutally honest they should be worked on from the very first day a kid turns up at a rugby club. If we have 18 year olds with poor skills then I would suggest the coaching of them to that point might be under done.

Scrummaging is likewise a learnt craft, but there also is a requirement for the preferred body shape and physical strength that not every player has.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
catch, run and pass are basic skills that can be learnt and honed.

Sure, but doing those things at speed in high end rugby isn't exactly easy.

It's a pretty modern aspect of international rugby that every player on the field is expected to do those things.

Likewise backs putting the head over the ball and winning turnovers at the breakdown.

The biggest change in the last decade or so is how skillsets are expected to be shared across the field rather than certain players having certain jobs and others never really having to do those things.
 

stillmissit

Chilla Wilson (44)
The biggest change in the last decade or so is how skillsets are expected to be shared across the field rather than certain players having certain jobs and others never really having to do those things.
BH, I think that is one of our problems. It's a stupid idea that Eddie Jones came up with in the early 2000's and look where it has taken us. Sure we have a cattle shortage and it ain't gonna get better in the next 10 years unless something changes.
I'm of the opinion that a return to specialist positions would reap rewards, but who knows as it hasn't been tried in the last 20 years!
 
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