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Argentina v Australia II @ 5.10am 14/08

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Tomthumb

Colin Windon (37)
The biggest change in the last decade or so is how skillsets are expected to be shared across the field rather than certain players having certain jobs and others never really having to do those things.
This kind of thinking is how Rodney Blake ended up playing more games for the Wallabies than Dan Palmer
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
BH, I think that is one of our problems. It's a stupid idea that Eddie Jones came up with in the early 2000's and look where it has taken us. Sure we have a cattle shortage and it ain't gonna get better in the next 10 years unless something changes.
I'm of the opinion that a return to specialist positions would reap rewards, but who knows as it hasn't been tried in the last 20 years!

What makes you think this is an Australian thing?

I'm talking about how the game has changed globally.

Go back 20 years and you'll barely see backs getting their head over the ball competing at the ruck but now it's pretty common because they're also the sort of players likely to get a good shot against an isolated player.

Go back 20 years and you'll barely see tight forwards involved in passing movements drawing their man etc.

The game has changed substantially.

This kind of thinking is how Rodney Blake ended up playing more games for the Wallabies than Dan Palmer

Not a great example. Blake played a handful of tests in a single season a long time apart from when Dan Palmer played. Palmer would have clearly played a lot more if his career hasn't been cut short by injury.
 

Tomthumb

Colin Windon (37)
Not a great example. Blake played a handful of tests in a single season a long time apart from when Dan Palmer played. Palmer would have clearly played a lot more if his career hasn't been cut short by injury.
Palmer signed to go overseas specifically because they wouldn't pick him. Dude was our only good scrummaging tight head in decades and played 1 test. All the while they were bemoaning their weak scrum
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Palmer signed to go overseas specifically because they wouldn't pick him. Dude was our only good scrummaging tight head in decades and played 1 test. All the while they were bemoaning their weak scrum

Nah, he was injured following his first test cap in the first test of 2012 and wasn't available for the rest of the year... he then signed a French deal in January 2013.

A foot injury saw him miss much of 2013, and then surgery ruled him out for the entire test season.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Palmer signed to go overseas specifically because they wouldn't pick him. Dude was our only good scrummaging tight head in decades and played 1 test. All the while they were bemoaning their weak scrum

There was a guy called Sekope Kepu who was pretty good and played a lot of tight head prop through that era. I believe he played a few times for the Wallabies.

We also had Benn Robinson and Ben Alexander who both played over 70 tests and James Slipper had also emerged and was a consistent part of the test team. It was also the era when there were only three props in the matchday squad.

Palmer played less than 50 Super Rugby games across 7 seasons as a Super Rugby player and never played a match overseas because he was forced to retire due to his injury.
 

Tomthumb

Colin Windon (37)
There was a guy called Sekope Kepu who was pretty good and played a lot of tight head prop through that era. I believe he played a few times for the Wallabies.

We also had Benn Robinson and Ben Alexander who both played over 70 tests and James Slipper had also emerged and was a consistent part of the test team. It was also the era when there were only three props in the matchday squad.

Palmer played less than 50 Super Rugby games across 7 seasons as a Super Rugby player and never played a match overseas because he was forced to retire due to his injury.
Kepu was a loosehead back then, Alexander was a loosehead they tried converting to tighthead because they had no tightheads apparently. Slipper was primarily a loosehead back then too

In 2011 Wallabies were desperate for a tighthead that wouldnt get demolished at scrum time
 

The Ghost of Raelene

Mark Ella (57)
Go back 20 years and you'll barely see backs getting their head over the ball competing at the ruck but now it's pretty common because they're also the sort of players likely to get a good shot against an isolated player.

Go back 20 years and you'll barely see tight forwards involved in passing movements drawing their man etc.

The game has changed substantially.
Rule changes and 7s have allowed this to develop as well. More young players especially the Backs have played 7s in juniors learning the pilfer and clean out more than previously.

I would also suggest that rules around the ruck and clean out that have made the game safer has allowed players who would of stayed the hell out of the way once upon a time now willing to stick their head in dark places to have ago.
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Kepu was a loosehead back then, Alexander was a loosehead they tried converting to tighthead because they had no tightheads apparently. Slipper was primarily a loosehead back then too

In 2011 Wallabies were desperate for a tighthead that wouldnt get demolished at scrum time

Again... 2011... Dan Palmer... injuries...

He spent a large portion at his peak injured, and was not available for test selection during that time and then went overseas.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
Palmer made it to round 11 in 2011 Super Rugby before he got injured and didn't play again that season.

This notion that he was crying out for selection and we ignored him because he was poor around the field is a myth.

There was rarely an opportunity to select him.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Surely we did have some-one who could scrummage better then Alexander though. I can't believe how many caps he managed to accrue.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
True, but we got the same problems as 11 years ago. Primarily players lacking core skills of their position.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
There are no good scrummaging tightheads listed

In 2011 the Waratahs were playing Al Baxter at tighthead still.

Rebels had the New Zealander Greg Sommerville.

Force had Tim Fairbrother and Matt Dunning.

Reds had James Slipper.

True, but we got the same problems as 11 years ago. Primarily players lacking core skills of their position.

The key thing here is that there aren't players with substantially better core skills being overlooked for someone who can do something else.
 

Tomthumb

Colin Windon (37)
It's still applicable today. It's why everyone keeps touching us up at scrum time

Gallo is great around the field, but he knows what his primary job is
 

Tomthumb

Colin Windon (37)
In 2011 the Waratahs were playing Al Baxter at tighthead still.

Rebels had the New Zealander Greg Sommerville.

Force had Tim Fairbrother and Matt Dunning.

Reds had James Slipper.



The key thing here is that there aren't players with substantially better core skills being overlooked for someone who can do something else.
That's our point, it's a coaching and development issue that begins in schoolboy rugby where all that matters is who can seagull best
 
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