ARU moves to kill off club player payments: A 3rd tier, club rugby and the $60k persuader

[Stands]

We should be putting some of these privileged players into the ITM Cup to harden them up a bit. Forget about swanning around having fun in the SS for a couple of years, and cop some hidings, and toughen up a bit against tough opposition.

I think Nick Stirzaker is playing ITM for the Manawatu Turbo's

 

[It is what it is]

I think Nick Stirzaker is playing ITM for the Manawatu Turbo's

Good player.

 

[Quick Hands]

The Daily Telegraph reports this morning that the ARU is set to announce a 3rd tier competion. 4 teams from Sydney, 3 from Brisbane, 1 each from Canberra, Melbourne and Perth. Teams to include established clubs and some clubs aligned to universities. Established clubs to have access to players from non-competing clubs.

For example (and based on this year's SS results only - not on what might happen) SU, Manly, Sthn D & Eastwood could be the 4 from Sydney and they would be able to sign players from the other SS clubs for the competition. From my reading of the article, clubs would have to demonstrate financial and administrative ability as well as playing depth to be licenced to enter the competition.

Interesting.

 

[Dam0]

Good player.

Yeah but he has had the misfortune of running into another young halfback (I forget the name) so he hasn't been getting as much gametime as he would have wanted.

I think Stirzaker will be a Wallaby next year.

 

[It is what it is]

Yeah but he has had the misfortune of running into another young halfback (I forget the name) so he hasn't been getting as much gametime as he would have wanted.

I think Stirzaker will be a Wallaby next year.

Yep he rips in, and passes well off the ground both ways.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The Daily Telegraph reports this morning that the ARU is set to announce a 3rd tier competion. 4 teams from Sydney, 3 from Brisbane, 1 each from Canberra, Melbourne and Perth. Teams to include established clubs and some clubs aligned to universities. Established clubs to have access to players from non-competing clubs.

For example (and based on this year's SS results only - not on what might happen) SU, Manly, Sthn D & Eastwood could be the 4 from Sydney and they would be able to sign players from the other SS clubs for the competition. From my reading of the article, clubs would have to demonstrate financial and administrative ability as well as playing depth to be licenced to enter the competition.

Interesting.

If true - why wouldnt all aspiring Norths and Gordon players move to Eastwood? Warringah boys to Manly?
What keeps the fringe 3rd tier players at the non 3rd tier clubs for the Shute Shield?

 

[Quick Hands]

If true - why wouldnt all aspiring Norths and Gordon players move to Eastwood? Warringah boys to Manly?
What keeps the fringe 3rd tier players at the non 3rd tier clubs for the Shute Shield?

That's the big problem with the model, if it is indeed what they go with. On paper it sounds fine; players play with SS clubs and are then picked up by the 4 afterwards, but in reality they would probably gravitate towards the 4 for SS and how many would return to their former clubs after 3rd tier?

I wonder what, if any, input has come from Sydney and Brisbane premiership clubs.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

That's the big problem with the model, if it is indeed what they go with. On paper it sounds fine; players play with SS clubs and are then picked up by the 4 afterwards, but in reality they would probably gravitate towards the 4 for SS and how many would return to their former clubs after 3rd tier?

I wonder what, if any, input has come from Sydney and Brisbane premiership clubs.

and to the ambition motive just add the fact that, as i understand it, those that stay with SS clubs wont be able to be paid by those clubs.
Is there going to be some audit to ensure that payments made to players for 3rd tier arent an inducement to play for that club in SS? How could that be policed?
In practice the only difference between this model and the ARC is that the ARU raid what is good about SS and leave SS/club rugby with the less good or in some cases the bad.
Someone (anyone) please tell me, just as a for instance, how Penrith as a SS club will benefit from this and as a second for instance how this provides rugby to kids and young adults in Western Sydney? or how it helps rugby in those places in SE Qld where rugby is thin on the ground

 

[Jagman]

If true - why wouldnt all aspiring Norths and Gordon players move to Eastwood? Warringah boys to Manly?
What keeps the fringe 3rd tier players at the non 3rd tier clubs for the Shute Shield?

A revised and functional player points system would help. They'll have to put this new comp into the calculations so its a good time to get rid of the 5 year membership discount that teams like Uni thrive on.

 

[TOCC]

Think some of you need to realise that there is no easy solution that appeases everyone, I don't doubt that some clubs will lose out in this proposal...

But this isn't about benefiting the shute shield clubs, they have had the chance to be Australia's third tier and failed, the level of competition isn't good enough and wasn't producing the experienced players we need.



Looking past the gripes and whinges and what we will have is a tournament which spans the country, which consolidates the best players of 3 separate competitions and is going to be of a superior quality to that of club rugby currently...

 

[Bruce Ross]

Interesting Canterbury JRC used to be affiliated with Sthn Districts, but are now with Sydney Uni

The link with Sydney Uni is not exactly a recent development, QH. In 2005 the President of Canterbury Juniors approached Sydney Uni requesting affiliation, which the Club agreed to. It was not until 2008 that Sydney Uni was designated as a junior district but effectively Canterbury Juniors have been part of Sydney Uni since 2005, that is, for the past nine seasons. And the Canterbury Juniors President who initiated the affiliation has remained the driving force behind the Sydney Juniors program.
.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Some clubs?
All but 4 in Sydney lose out - and even if you think this a step forward why and how should the anointed 4 play in the Shute Shield: what is the point of that?
4 clubs with paid players and the balance scrounging around trying to keep players from going to the 4 clubs where they can be paid.
Instead of people saying that vested interest has to give a little why doesnt someone explain exactly how it is conceived that this can work?
And by the way I have no affiliation with any club so you cant accuse me of vested interest.
The reason for the lack of experienced players lies a lot further down in the completely dysfunctional under age "pathways" (better described as mazes) in which parental influence and vested interest flourish by virtue of long term neglect from the ARU of the source of all players: THE FRIGGING JUNIORS.

 

[TOCC]

Some clubs?
All but 4 in Sydney lose out - and even if you think this a step forward why and how should the anointed 4 play in the Shute Shield: what is the point of that?
4 clubs with paid players and the balance scrounging around trying to keep players from going to the 4 clubs where they can be paid.
Instead of people saying that vested interest has to give a little why doesnt someone explain exactly how it is conceived that this can work?
And by the way I have no affiliation with any club so you cant accuse me of vested interest.
The reason for the lack of experienced players lies a lot further down in the completely dysfunctional under age "pathways" (better described as mazes) in which parental influence and vested interest flourish by virtue of long term neglect from the ARU of the source of all players: THE FRIGGING JUNIORS.

Like i said, there is no one solution that appeases everyone, and once again the current system isnt working, the Shute Shield isn't providing the quality depth that Super Rugby and subsequently the Wallabies need

Junior Rugby is the problem? So does that mean you see absolutely no merits to a third tier....

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Junior Rugby is the problem? So does that mean you see absolutely no merits to a third tier..

I think there is merit in what has been termed a 3rd tier but I think it has to be done incrementally. Like nearly all of Australian public life we are looking for quick fixes - one always needs ot have one eye on the law of unintended consequences.
There is no point in pissing off 2/3 or 3/4 of the rusted on rugby followers so you have to think about how to keep them onside.
My preferred approach is the ARC but that ship has sailed and we're financially worse off now than we were then - which is breathtaking when you think about it.
I think a better solution is to make the SS and Premier Rugby a playoff for the competition in the National comp.
From Sydney why not have:

• the 3 highest finishing teams - probably based on minor not major premiership as it would be a cruel for say the minor premiers who lost by a point in a semi to miss out on post season play and would in fact be counter productive.
• a 4th team selected from the next best players.

The 4th team would obviously need a lot of financial input from the ARU but it would lessen the incentive for players to club hop to try and get into one of the 3 best. if you really want to get the best you could even limit the clubs to 2 and have 2 additional teams from the remainder.
Whatever happens you must permit the non 3rd tier clubs to pay their players otherwise you will just finish up with 4 elite clubs and the balance also rans.

 

[Quick Hands]

The link with Sydney Uni is not exactly a recent development, QH. In 2005 the President of Canterbury Juniors approached Sydney Uni requesting affiliation, which the Club agreed to. It was not until 2008 that Sydney Uni was designated as a junior district but effectively Canterbury Juniors have been part of Sydney Uni since 2005, that is, for the past nine seasons. And the Canterbury Juniors President who initiated the affiliation has remained the driving force behind the Sydney Juniors program.
.

Hopefully with the support of SU, Canterbury will be able to increase junior rugby participation in that part of Sydney.

 

[I like to watch]

Like i said, there is no one solution that appeases everyone, and once again the current system isnt working, the Shute Shield isn't providing the quality depth that Super Rugby and subsequently the Wallabies need

Junior Rugby is the problem? So does that mean you see absolutely no merits to a third tier..

Where are they going to get players for the 3rd tier,if they destroy the SS?
Colts for the 8 clubs being adversely affected will also be significantly affected.
They need to make the SS stronger,not destroy it.

 

[TOCC]

Where are they going to get players for the 3rd tier,if they destroy the SS?
Colts for the 8 clubs being adversely affected will also be significantly affected.
They need to make the SS stronger,not destroy it.

What nonsense, this won't destroy the shute shield, players will still need to compete for positions, prove their worth and justify earning selection in the new competition...yes it will push the shute shield down the pecking order but clubs will still compete.

 

[Braveheart81]

Maybe one way they can get around the succesful club/struggling club scenario that would be further entrenched under this sort of scenario is to introduce a quota system.

Say for instance you let the top 3 Shute Shield clubs enter a team in this competition, you could also include a rule that in any matchday 23 they field in the competition, they have to field x number of players that aren't from their club and perhaps a limit of y players from any one club.

 

[Quick Hands]

Where are they going to get players for the 3rd tier,if they destroy the SS?
Colts for the 8 clubs being adversely affected will also be significantly affected.
They need to make the SS stronger,not destroy it.

Announcement on competition is due after the ARU board meeting on October 21.

The devil will be in the detail.

It will be interesting to see if they can manage to keep the SS with it's colts component strong and viable, while at the same time establishing a genuine 3rd tier.

The structure of the game needs to flow from minis to junior village clubs to junior rep programmes to colts to grade and then 3rd tier, Super and Tests. If any link in the chain is broken or weakened then it affects what happens above and below.

 

[Quick Hands]

What nonsense, this won't destroy the shute shield, players will still need to compete for positions, prove their worth and justify earning selection in the new competition.yes it will push the shute shield down the pecking order but clubs will still compete.

I think what they're getting at is having 4 semi-professional SS clubs who also compete in 3rd tier playing 8 essentially amateur clubs in the SS part of the season.