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Australian Rugby / RA

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Why is it only in rugby that we hear about wanting full professional players to go play in an amateur comp? ‍♂

you don’t see anyone expecting NRL or AFL players to be back home playing in some amateur comp.

this idea that it will somehow “help the game” is a myth I’m sorry. It’s a redundant notion that’s is full of romanticism for the old ways.

what fully professional rugby players need is more games against other fully pro rugby players.

Players tend to jump between the NRL and NSW Cup. Which for those outside the Top 30 is very much still professional. But I get what you're saying. Professional players need more professional games which at present we just don't have.
 

D-Box

Ron Walden (29)
Why is it only in rugby that we hear about wanting full professional players to go play in an amateur comp? ‍♂

you don’t see anyone expecting NRL or AFL players to be back home playing in some amateur comp.

this idea that it will somehow “help the game” is a myth I’m sorry. It’s a redundant notion that’s is full of romanticism for the old ways.

what fully professional rugby players need is more games against other fully pro rugby players.
That is where they go if dropped though.
 

molman

Peter Johnson (47)
Why is it only in rugby that we hear about wanting full professional players to go play in an amateur comp? ‍♂

you don’t see anyone expecting NRL or AFL players to be back home playing in some amateur comp.

this idea that it will somehow “help the game” is a myth I’m sorry. It’s a redundant notion that’s is full of romanticism for the old ways.

what fully professional rugby players need is more games against other fully pro rugby players.
If enough return to the semi-professional comps like the Shute Shield then that is exactly what you have (ie. Players like Tane Edmed being back at the Woodies since around Round 11 I believe), professionally contracted players playing other professionally contracted players. I'm sure @Highlander35 will be happy to show you what this looks like in the NPC with the Crusaders B side essentially running around for Canturbury.

Shute Shield & Hospital Cup have some issues/challenges with a lot of that next level of talent getting pulled offshore (contracts in France, MLR, Japan) these days. Throw in things like Australia A's, U20's competitions, 7's programs, plus some professionals choosing short term contracts with European clubs or even stints in the NPC etc.. and the general level is not as high as it needs to be.

Also, you need to remember that the NRL & AFL competitions are 25 & 24 round competitions + finals compared to our 15 round competition. Players are generally playing a lot more games over the year.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
If enough return to the semi-professional comps like the Shute Shield then that is exactly what you have (ie. Players like Tane Edmed being back at the Woodies since around Round 11 I believe), professionally contracted players playing other professionally contracted players. I'm sure [B]@Highlander35 will be happy to show you what this looks like in the NPC with the Crusaders B side essentially running around for Canturbury.[/B]

Shute Shield & Hospital Cup have some issues/challenges with a lot of that next level of talent getting pulled offshore (contracts in France, MLR, Japan) these days. Throw in things like Australia A's, U20's competitions, 7's programs, plus some professionals choosing short term contracts with European clubs or even stints in the NPC etc.. and the general level is not as high as it needs to be.

Also, you need to remember that the NRL & AFL competitions are 25 & 24 round competitions + finals compared to our 15 round competition. Players are generally playing a lot more games over the year.

The NPC and our club comps are not comparable.
 

Rebel man

Peter Johnson (47)
Why is it only in rugby that we hear about wanting full professional players to go play in an amateur comp? ‍♂

you don’t see anyone expecting NRL or AFL players to be back home playing in some amateur comp.

this idea that it will somehow “help the game” is a myth I’m sorry. It’s a redundant notion that’s is full of romanticism for the old ways.

what fully professional rugby players need is more games against other fully pro rugby players.
AFL players go play club footy in the SANFL, VFL or WAFL.
 

molman

Peter Johnson (47)
The NPC and our club comps are not comparable.
Pretty sure that’s what I said?
Shute Shield & Hospital Cup have some issues/challenges with a lot of that next level of talent getting pulled offshore (contracts in France, MLR, Japan) these days. Throw in things like Australia A's, U20's competitions, 7's programs, plus some professionals choosing short term contracts with European clubs or even stints in the NPC etc.. and the general level is not as high as it needs to be.
i.e. if all Super Rugby players were returning to SS/HC it would maybe a of a higher standard, but enough don't for various reasons (outlined) and a lot of the talent that used to ply their trades in those comps have and increased range of options these days (also outlined), including the NPC.
 
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Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
AFL players go play club footy in the SANFL, VFL or WAFL.

Yes, AFL PLAYERS play in the SANFL, VFL or WAFL. But they largely play for "professional" outfits. If we look at the 14 clubs who's "reserve" players play in the VFL, you have 11 of them running direct affiliate seconds, 2 running direct affiliates in all but name, and St Kilda. The WA and SA clubs are somewhat hamstrung by the controlling interest the state bodies hold over them.

Brodie Grundy's not being asked to turn out for the University Blacks alongside amateurs and fly ins from other professional teams, or fly back to Adelaide to play with his home club of Sturt, he's turning out for Casey Demons who play the same systems and mostly the same players he trains with week in week out, playing the role that the Senior Coaching staff ask him to play.
 

Rebel man

Peter Johnson (47)
Yes, AFL PLAYERS play in the SANFL, VFL or WAFL. But they largely play for "professional" outfits. If we look at the 14 clubs who's "reserve" players play in the VFL, you have 11 of them running direct affiliate seconds, 2 running direct affiliates in all but name, and St Kilda. The WA and SA clubs are somewhat hamstrung by the controlling interest the state bodies hold over them.

Brodie Grundy's not being asked to turn out for the University Blacks alongside amateurs and fly ins from other professional teams, or fly back to Adelaide to play with his home club of Sturt, he's turning out for Casey Demons who play the same systems and mostly the same players he trains with week in week out, playing the role that the Senior Coaching staff ask him to play.
Yet they play with and against amateur players. It is part and parcel of second tier sport
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
Yet they play with and against amateur players. It is part and parcel of second tier sport
If your argument is that there are no sports where the lines between fully professional, semi professional and amateur are clearly defined and have 0 overlap, I concede that to you.

I will comfortably suggest that treating rugby players as cricket players and dropping them ad hoc into suburban grade competitions is a substantially more amateur arrangement than either the formal loan arrangements or, to use an americanism, formal Major league-Minor League affiliation arrangements.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
Pretty sure that’s what I said?

i.e. if all Super Rugby players were returning to SS/HC it would maybe a of a higher standard, but enough don't for various reasons (outlined) and a lot of the talent that used to ply their trades in those comps have and increased range of options these days (also outlined), including the NPC.

You were alluding to the standard of that competition when the pro return. Issue with that is the NPC is a provincial competition sitting above the local club comps. The pros have their own city/province based clubs which are the equivalent of our club comps. If they went back to them they would help the standard a little but because they would be spread across many clubs it would not be enough to significantly raise the standard to what is required. Thus the NPC.

Here we'd have players being spread across 3-5 competitions. Somewhere between 28-50 clubs. It would raise the standard a little but not enough to provide the quality element to the equation. We need more quality games. Not just more games in general.
 

Rebel man

Peter Johnson (47)
If your argument is that there are no sports where the lines between fully professional, semi professional and amateur are clearly defined and have 0 overlap, I concede that to you.

I will comfortably suggest that treating rugby players as cricket players and dropping them ad hoc into suburban grade competitions is a substantially more amateur arrangement than either the formal loan arrangements or, to use an americanism, formal Major league-Minor League affiliation arrangements.
Cricket is a perfect example Labuschange was the number one test batsman and regularly played club cricket.

The difference in the AFL is most of the old VFA clubs died out. But the South Australians play in a comp where less than 20% of players are professional
 

molman

Peter Johnson (47)
You were alluding to the standard of that competition when the pro return. Issue with that is the NPC is a provincial competition sitting above the local club comps. The pros have their own city/province based clubs which are the equivalent of our club comps. If they went back to them they would help the standard a little but because they would be spread across many clubs it would not be enough to significantly raise the standard to what is required. Thus the NPC.

Here we'd have players being spread across 3-5 competitions. Somewhere between 28-50 clubs. It would raise the standard a little but not enough to provide the quality element to the equation. We need more quality games. Not just more games in general.
No, I was responding to "this idea that it will somehow “help the game” is a myth I’m sorry. It’s a redundant notion that’s is full of romanticism for the old ways." comment by indicating that if professional calibre players do return to the club competitions there is still some value, whilst also acknowledging that the calibre has unfortunately gone down due to a swath of reasons.

Historically this did work somewhat as the majority returned to the NSW & Qld competitions, coupled with less professional clubs (3) and less other options (MLR / Japan etc..etc..) probably concentrating the player pool and raising the overall standard.

But yes, you are correct, there is no replacement for the ARC/NRC and our attempt to replicate that third tier, I don't disagree. The issue is the finances are not there to support this properly.
 

Adam84

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
I cant help feel that the finance issue gets thrown out too often, when the real issue is parochialism and control.

RA could carry the cost of a comp like the NRC, but the root issue is parochialism, selfishness and control from other stakeholders in the game will always prevent this from been successful.

A 3rd tier will never exist successful until those major stakeholders in NSW support it, but I’ve never seen them table anything other than the Shute Shield as an option. If they’re going to reject other options that benefit those areas outside of Sydney, what alternative are the Shute Shield powerbrokers pushing?
 

PhilClinton

Geoff Shaw (53)
If they’re going to reject other options that benefit those areas outside of Sydney, what alternative are the Shute Shield powerbrokers pushing?

All professionally contracted Australian players must play Shute Shield, or be banished. That one might get over the line.
 

dru

Tim Horan (67)
A 3rd tier will never exist successful until those major stakeholders in NSW support it, but I’ve never seen them table anything other than the Shute Shield as an option. If they’re going to reject other options that benefit those areas outside of Sydney, what alternative are the Shute Shield powerbrokers pushing?

It's crazy, isn't it. I've heard senior SRU personalities talking about how the NRL started, based on the existing clubs. That's probably not the way that Queensland League saw it but whatever.

I suspect they want in on the determinations on the setup, funding guarantees, and I guess also a guarantee on who are the star-bellied sneetches. I also suspect that would like to see a dismantling of Waratahs Ltd or at least ownership and control by those star-bellied sneetches.
 

Adam84

Nick Farr-Jones (63)
RM Willliams launching a new wallaby/rugby range? They’re already sponsors
IMG_1024.jpeg
 

LeCheese

Ken Catchpole (46)
RM Willliams launching a new wallaby/rugby range? They’re already sponsors
View attachment 16885
This has been hinted at for quite a while. Oddly I recall seeing a (Victorian?) retailer promoting a RMW x Wallabies line several months ago, but didn't have any products listed at the time, and I haven't been able to recall who the retailer was to check since.

Keen to see what's in store - not that keen to drop $100 on a keyring.
 
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