Big change to eligibility rules

[BDA]

So we need 10 to leave to have an impact on Super Rugby? Don't come crying to me when Slipper and Simmons don't re-sign their next deals because it will be directly because of this new policy.

The way I see it is this Qwerty,

the ARU can only afford to contract a certain number of test players every year. By the time most players get to 60 tests they've played for the wallabies for the wallabies for 7 or 8 years and they're ready to chase the $$. Whether we like it or not that's the truth. Just look at the players that are heading overseas next year. The majority of them have been long servers of the jersey. The trends are showing us that by the time you get to Kepu's or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)'s position in their career, they're ready to move on.

Those that stick around, I'd wager aren't purely driven by the jersey but because they enjoy living in this country and playing for their club, and are still getting paid pretty great money for doing it. Teams like the Reds will always be able to afford a few stars like Slipper. Will this decision make him automatically leave the country? Not necessarily. And he's one of only a very few that has played for Australia long enough to qualify for this exempton

The flip side of all this is that the from an ARU perspective, they eventually need the experienced heads to move on so that they can contract the next up and coming stars. If Giteau was still playing for the Brumbies would To'omua be starting? (that's just a rhetorical example, but you get my point).

If older stars don't eventually move off an ARU contract we end up with younger players heading overseas, i.e a Kane Douglas type situation (Douglas couldn't get a top up because the ARU could only contract so many locks and there were other guys in front of him).

 

[Blue]

Elsom is only 32 now? He would have been what - 26 or 27 when he came back? Injury or not that should be in his prime. And I really don't remember anyone back then thinking that he was old or past it. He just wasn't good.

If guys are only heading over when they are past their prime, how do you know if Gits is any better than when he left? He's playing against guys whose best is behind them.

I watched Gits play finals rugby against guys in their prime. I think he has improved. He was a better player than what we saw under Deans.I believed it then and I believe it now.

Elsom came back injured and never really recovered. Enough was written about it. His hamstrings were dragging on the ground.

 

[Braveheart81]

So we need 10 to leave to have an impact on Super Rugby? Don't come crying to me when Slipper and Simmons don't re-sign their next deals because it will be directly because of this new policy.

I don't think it's going to make that much difference overall. Some of those experienced Wallabies will always go overseas and some will stay here for one reason or another.

If players are driven by wanting to play for the Wallabies then I think they will keep the mindset that the best way to keep their place is be in Australia.

 

[BDA]

I forgot about Beale, he is definitely another that should be gone from Super Rugby. TPN, Slipper, Simmons, Beale. Why should they stay?

Honestly how many of those players do you think would still be playing in Super Rugby after 2016 if they hadn't introduced these new rules

 

[qwerty51]

These people are leaving after a RWC, that's normal. They pretty much all held out until 2016 except for a few like Mowen, Kimlin, Douglas etc. Now they're just going to leave when they feel like it.

Honestly how many of those players do you think would still be playing in Super Rugby after 2016 if they hadn't introduced these new rules

Seriously? All 4 of them. Easily. They've got a long way to go in their Test careers. TPN would be the next one to leave but only because of his head issues I reckon.

 

[mark_s]

Good post BDA. To extend your point, it allows the ARU to keep getting some benefits (on and off field) from well established test players that the ARU have previously invested heavily in while letting someone else pick up most of their current (high) salaries.

Super rugby will suffer some but it will work out.

 

[BDA]

These people are leaving after a RWC, that's normal. They pretty much all held out until 2016 except for a few like Mowen, Kimlin, Douglas etc. Now they're just going to leave when they feel like it.



Seriously? All 4 of them. Easily. They've got a long way to go in their Test careers. TPN would be the next one to leave but only because of his head issues I reckon.

If you seriously think all four of those guys would still be contracted to Super teams in 2017 then you are blind to what is going on

 

[Bullrush]

I watched Gits play finals rugby against guys in their prime. I think he has improved. He was a better player than what we saw under Deans.I believed it then and I believe it now.

Elsom came back injured and never really recovered. Enough was written about it. His hamstrings were dragging on the ground.

I guess it depends on how you rate Super Rugby and SH rugby. I think that Super Rugby is the highest level you can play apart from Tests. Players are pitted against the best from the 3 nations that have won every RWC bar 1.

To date, for whatever reason you may give, there just is very little evidence to support the idea that NH makes players any better.

Leinster are starting Jimmy Goppeth for pete's sake!

Toulon are starting Ali Williams, Bakkies Botha, Chris Masoe and Freddy Michalak. Great players in their day but would they crack regular starting spots in any of the top Super Rugby teams?? I'm not sure.....

 

[Braveheart81]

You've got to think that the style of rugby played in the Northern Hemisphere suits older bodies better than Super Rugby.

I'd be interested to know the average ages of the respective competitions and see if there are substantial differences.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I guess it depends on how you rate Super Rugby and SH rugby. I think that Super Rugby is the highest level you can play apart from Tests. Players are pitted against the best from the 3 nations that have won every RWC bar 1.

To date, for whatever reason you may give, there just is very little evidence to support the idea that NH makes players any better.

Leinster are starting Jimmy Goppeth for pete's sake!

Toulon are starting Ali Williams, Bakkies Botha, Chris Masoe and Freddy Michalak. Great players in their day but would they crack regular starting spots in any of the top Super Rugby teams?? I'm not sure...

A fair point. Super rugby is the toughest and best non-test comp in the world, no doubt. I said to a fellow Force fan on the weekend that even as bad as we've been this season we'd still be a lot of teams up North. That's no disrespect to those clubs, just that Super Rugby is a very, very tough comp for a wide range of reasons.

Think this move gives the ARU more options to retain some of our talent at the top level and a bit of carrot and stick to manage our playing group.

 

[Viking]

I guess it depends on how you rate Super Rugby and SH rugby. I think that Super Rugby is the highest level you can play apart from Tests. Players are pitted against the best from the 3 nations that have won every RWC bar 1.

To date, for whatever reason you may give, there just is very little evidence to support the idea that NH makes players any better.

Leinster are starting Jimmy Goppeth for pete's sake!

Toulon are starting Ali Williams, Bakkies Botha, Chris Masoe and Freddy Michalak. Great players in their day but would they crack regular starting spots in any of the top Super Rugby teams?? I'm not sure...

The level of rugby in the North isn't that far behind super xv. At least not enough to detract players from heading over there especially when their are many more benefits from leaving such as salary, cultural experience, and I hate to say it but the rugby environment certainly looks more attractive in the North.

Have you seen the fans a Toulon chanting for their team? They're crowds are so vocal and the stadiums seem like they are always packed. Most aussies thoroughly enjoy their time there and I would certainly love to play for a team with that much passion and support.

 

[Benaud]

Fox article says 6 players made available by the changes but doesn't specify which 6. I'm reading Gits, Georgie, Elsom and Mitchell on caps, and Douglas and Ma'afu on Super commitment. Is that right?

 

[qwerty51]

Douglas and Ma'afu haven't committed to anyone. Dean Mumm is 1 I don't know the other. Actually Mumm has only committed to 1 year so isn't eligible? Tim Horan wrote the article so that explains a bit.

FWIW, Elsom doesn't play any more. He was doing some kind of player/coach thing at Narbonne but haven't seem his name on a team list in months. Not sure you could pick someone playing out of D2 anyway.

 

[Benaud]

Gotta admit I haven't been following overseas stuff at all. So it's just Giteau, Smith and Mitchell?

 

[Hawko]

I guess it depends on how you rate Super Rugby and SH rugby. I think that Super Rugby is the highest level you can play apart from Tests. Players are pitted against the best from the 3 nations that have won every RWC bar 1.

To date, for whatever reason you may give, there just is very little evidence to support the idea that NH makes players any better.

Leinster are starting Jimmy Goppeth for pete's sake!

Toulon are starting Ali Williams, Bakkies Botha, Chris Masoe and Freddy Michalak. Great players in their day but would they crack regular starting spots in any of the top Super Rugby teams?? I'm not sure...

I don't watch as much NH rugby as some, but I normally see a Top 14 game every week and as many of the Six Nations games as Fox shows and I severely doubt that many of the NH stars would hack the pace of Super Rugby, particularly the top echelon of Super Rugby. The Top 14 really looks slow to me, especially the backline defence. The set piece in the NH is pretty willing but a lot of the Top 14 forwards are pretty slow. When Ali Williams left Super Rugby he was a liability to his team; yet he is a first choice lock two years later at Toulon, who are top of the tree in France.

Of the three players that might pass the 60 test and 7 years rule (Smith, Giteau and Mitchell) NONE of those three would start in my Wallaby team. Age has caught up with the great man, when he came back for the Lions tour he was OK but nothing special. Hooper and Pocock are now way better. Mitchell has lost several yards of pace and wouldn't be in the top five wingers. To'omua would have Giteau for breakfast. I'd want to see Giteau one-on-one with Lilo before I even thought about him for the bench - right now I would prefer Lilo. And I've seen a fair bit of Giteau for Toulon, without being greatly impressed.

I think this new system has got nothing to do with the guys in the NH now, its all about the guys who will be going after the World Cup.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Who has come back from the NH better players than what they left? Is anyone think Burgess is better than when he left? How average was Epsom when he came back? Does anyone remember how much crap Gits was getting here on this forum for his play before he left? Do you guys think he's much better than when he left?

Hard to think of anyone from either Aus or NZ who has come back better players.

I agree completely. I daresay very few Brumbies' supporters would be keen to see Matt Giteau back, but we apparently have long memories. Funny how absence seems to make the heart grow fonder.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Who has come back from the NH better players than what they left? Is anyone think Burgess is better than when he left? How average was Epsom when he came back? Does anyone remember how much crap Gits was getting here on this forum for his play before he left? Do you guys think he's much better than when he left?

Hard to think of anyone from either Aus or NZ who has come back better players.

The best example I'd say was Leon MacDonald. He came back from Japan IMO faster and a much improved kicker. I also think the experience of being away from NZ helped him as a person.

He soon became a permanent fixture under Henry and at times was the starting fullback with Mils doing stints on the wing, centre or bench. He was also a key impact player off the bench. That second season of Super rugby after he returned I think he and Nonu topped the tackle bust count overall.

A new man was our Rangi.

 

[Joe Blow]

I bet Cheika is on the phone with Douglas encouraging him to return next year. Maybe Kimlin as well. George Smith could be an option if Poey or Hooper get injured.
Gits will already be pencilled in on the RWC squad with question marks now next to QC (Quade Cooper) and KB (Kurtley Beale) on the same document.

It's bloody brilliant really.
1. Encourages our young Wallabies to stick around for a while.
2. Encourages OS players to return to Oz around the RWC if they do not qualify with tests and time served.
3. Opens the door for selection of OS based test veterans if and when needed.

There is nothing wrong with 60+ test Wallabies going offshore and creating opportunities for young up and comers in Super Rugby.

 

[Dan54]

I think I like this policy, but quite happy that NZ haven't adopted it. As Blue says, Giteau looks to be one player that has the goods to perhaps play for Wallabies in WC ( I thought leaving him out of 2011 was Deans biggest cock up) , as he looks to be playing pretty good rugby. But anyone thinking it going to make a huge impact on Wallabies is probably mistaken, as players are only released for approved test windows, not for training camps etc etc, so I wouldn't think you would want to bring in anymore than 1 or 2 players for a test. All in all players in Japan would need some hard rugby before stepping into test rugby I think, and sure as hell European clubs are not going to allow players rests before or after tests. Also you would need a selector based in Europe I think.
Anyway don't really blame ARU for trying this as finances dictate how much they can play to hold players!!

 

[Bairdy]

Why do people keep bringing up Douglas as if he will feature for the Wallabies this year? He is contracted to Leinster until 2016.