Brumbies 2017

[mst]

As a counterpoint, what young player is already signed up that you want?

And would the Ray's fly half not be good enough for you? Or Sam Greene when he gets back from Japan? Or Ben Lucas?

Good question. I suppose i could ask why the Rising are playing a 9 at 10 if those options were available and viable; which could serve as a sad indictment of my point.

The answer, in part, to your above question should be along the lines of who is left that the other Super Rugby actually want - which serves as a good maker rather than just grabbing a player for the sake of it. (Lucas falls in to this category)

For example, if Green why did the Red's not keep him? McIntyre is another option but shows little and raises some big question. Deagan is an option but contracted.

The best way to answer this would be to ask who is the best back up 10 that looks the good and we want to give the opportunity to for the benefit of Aussie rugby? Who is the back up at the Rebels, Reds, Tah's and Force or waiting in the development queue?

Do you mean Lane or Sinclair from the Rays. Sinclair I know little about and I believe Lane is still rebuilding after his injuries and time out of the game so I am unsure about his viability talent wise and physically.

I think the reality here is this conversation about potential (known) players at 10 has had its day already in the Red's, Force and I believe even Rebels forums which shows its slim pickings - but we keep hoping a name will come up that ticks the boxes.

 

[Brumby Runner]

It seems to me that the problem with 10s in Aus is that certain types of players (McIntyre, Mason etc) get selected at schoolboy level because they can kick the ball and sometimes pass to supports but do very little else. Deegan I thought was a similar type of player but seems to have added some running game in the NRC. Mostly, these schoolboy type players just don't cut it in professional level rugby, but there are precious few others coming through the system.

 

[USARugger]

@Mst - You'd have better luck reading tea leaves to predict the winner of the next RWC than you would trying to divine truths from the Richard Graham and immediately post-Richard Graham era of the Reds.

As an aside, your post above confuses me BR. McIntyre is not a good kicker while Greene has a much more considerable boot on him. What I saw of Mason indicated his strengths even at a young age were in attacking play and passing the ball to the right runner.

 

[TOCC]

Precisely Highlander..

This obsession with bringing in foreign players for quick fixes doesn't remedy long term flaws in Australian rugby, this NRC is evidence enough that there are quality halfbacks in Australian, so why were 2 of the starting Super Rugby players ineligible for the Wallabies??


I'm a fan of marquee players when done smartly, but it needs to be done in a coordinated manner between the ARU and provinces with longer term objectives in mInd, and not just the lazy/easy option out because teams haven't recruited or planned well enough.

 

[Highlander35]

Why Bip at 10? Turiniri feels that at NRC level, you put your 7 best backs out there and let them organise themselves.

Shipperley and Maddocks injured. Sefa and Hodge with the Wallabies. Jack in poor form. 3 Super scrummies on the books. And Meehan having played 10 before, for Box Hill, in Rebels Trials, in the second half of Rising games last season and having been a halfback for the Storm U20s, he's the logical choice.

Greene and Lucas both signed Japanese contracts far in advance of the NRC. I'd love Ben, and I'd be happy with Sam at the Rebels next season. Benny has been hard done by IMO, Reds made the mistake of dumping him for JOC (James O'Connor) and Hunt, then nobody else signed him for one reason or another.

I think the slight gain in performance with recruiting 21 year old non-aussie who can't crack an NPC starting jersey probably isn't worth the while over developing Jooste and another player, whether that's Greene, Sinclair, Lane or anyone else, whereas signing a relative "journeyman" in Lucas would provide superior on field performance to the New Zealand option.

Ultimately, if you've got the required spot free (Brumbies, Tahs and Force get 1 Marquee, 1 Japanese and 1 development I think) no one should be able to complain too much about your recruitment, but when regular Currie Cup and NPC starters have come and played relatively poorly, I wouldn't take a punt on someone not even proven at that level.

 

[RebelYell]

Why Bip at 10? Turiniri feels that at NRC level, you put your 7 best backs out there and let them organise themselves.

Shipperley and Maddocks injured. Sefa and Hodge with the Wallabies. Jack in poor form. 3 Super scrummies on the books. And Meehan having played 10 before, for Box Hill, in Rebels Trials, in the second half of Rising games last season and having been a halfback for the Storm U20s, he's the logical choice.

Greene and Lucas both signed Japanese contracts far in advance of the NRC. I'd love Ben, and I'd be happy with Sam at the Rebels next season. Benny has been hard done by IMO, Reds made the mistake of dumping him for JOC (James O'Connor) and Hunt, then nobody else signed him for one reason or another.

I think the slight gain in performance with recruiting 21 year old non-aussie who can't crack an NPC starting jersey probably isn't worth the while over developing Jooste and another player, whether that's Greene, Sinclair, Lane or anyone else, whereas signing a relative "journeyman" in Lucas would provide superior on field performance to the New Zealand option.

Ultimately, if you've got the required spot free (Brumbies, Tahs and Force get 1 Marquee, 1 Japanese and 1 development I think) no one should be able to complain too much about your recruitment, but when regular Currie Cup and NPC starters have come and played relatively poorly, I wouldn't take a punt on someone not even proven at that level.

Great post Highlander in regards to the Melbourne context, but may I add I would still have liked to have seen Dan Hawkins given another year in Melbourne, and if we had managed to secure Ihaia West when we went close two years ago I wouldn't be complaining...

For specialist positions (e.g. front row, halves) I have no issue with going overseas for either DFPs or Foreign Marquees if the quality isn't coming through in this country.

I hope Lilo is okay to play next season, but Brums will be looking at contingency plans and outside of Ben Lucas or Berrick Barnes I can't see a lot of Australian alternatives, including Greene who whilst talented has not shown enough to suggest he could start regularly for a Super Rugby team contending to win their conference. And I don't think that Barnes is at all likely to come. Unless they could somehow convince Brock James to return home for 1 year, they may have no alternative but to look abroad...

 

[Forcefield]

What about looking into bringing Zack Holmes back? Or converting Kyle Godwin back to a 10 and looking into 12 options?

 

[mst]

I think the point that has been overlooked (and it was pretty clear a few pages back) in this conversation is the reason I, like BR (I am taking a liberty here BR) are discussing the potential of bring in 21yo Kiwi is to actually develop Aussie players. A point that seems to conveniently allude some.

So with Lilo in the mix, there is time and space to get Jooste, who has shown potential but not enough right now to be up to Super Rugby level. As Horan is in the mix (its convenient - so why not as he is here) we can also have a go at developing him.

Sadly, Lilo is out of the equation (most likely) so pushing Jooste to a starting 10 is fraught with danger and is something if possible i think we all would like to avoid and mitigate the risks.

So, you bring in a 21yo Kiwi as a developing 10, being slightly older and experienced than Jooste can take the lead and the pressure while Jooste can have the time and space (along with an even younger Horan) to skill up and get the experience they need. (Insert penny dropping noise of realisation that we are using the Kiwi as a means to an end )

Its a time limited 2yrs project that will then (if it all works out) would have Jooste as the starting 10 and Horan as the number 2 with another being developed (wishful speculation).

If the Kiwi is that good, he will be good wherever he is, but at least here we can tell every promising 10 around Canberra and region to go ask him questions, watch him, emulate him etc, as if we can get one thing from him here that helps our own i would take it. But who knows, he may not amount to anything, we may actually burn him.

Also, having 3x young 10's all bouncing off each other, competing but working together to develop should help expedite things somewhat.

If it keeps the Brumbies competitive for the next 2yrs even better.

The reality of it all is its a gamble. but to offset it the extra interest a Kiwi 10 could draw and the whole group may pay off supporter wise.

Conversely, the risk here is we throw Jooste in to the shark tank with no back up (and no Coleman is not an option) of Super Rugby and he gets burned and never make it, the Brumbies get a strong grasp on the wooden spoon and we end up with a big costly mess for Aussie rugby as a whole and still have a vacancy at 10.

 

[Highlander35]

Great post Highlander in regards to the Melbourne context, but may I add I would still have liked to have seen Dan Hawkins given another year in Melbourne, and if we had managed to secure Ihaia West when we went close two years ago I wouldn't be complaining.

I agree fully, but Both of those are a little different though. Hawkins was and is a regular starter for North Harbour, while West missed out on a Blues contract only because of Benji Marshall, and found himself with a contract 5 months later anyway. People here are talking about signing someone unproven at NPC level, which is still a higher standard than NRC. At that point I'd prefer to sink time into a Sinclair based on his Norths and Rays performances. If they could secure a player of Lilos quality/experience could be secured, that's a signing worth making.

 

[mst]

^^insert Sinclair in to the above on an EPS, drop Horan on to a development contract and you have multiple options and see who pans out. You are correct with the higher skill level of Mitre10 players in general, thus why it may be a good thing to have our guys see the benchmark across the dutch and compete internally.

 

[TOCC]

.
For specialist positions (e.g. front row, halves) I have no issue with going overseas for either DFPs or Foreign Marquees if the quality isn't coming through in this country..

Disagree, specialist positions are precisely the positions that shouldn't be open to players ineligible for the Wallabies.

Had the Tahs recruited a quality foreign THP to replace Kepu then Robertson would never have earned a start and wouldn't be pulling on a test jersey this weekend. Had the Rebels recruited a foreign hooker Instead of Hanson, then Hanson could have remained in QLD and Andrew Ready would never have debut'd. Both those positions looked ominously weak 12 months ago for both teams.

Foreign development players In specialost positions i begrudgingly accept is a necessary evil in some cases, but not foreign marquees.. and the reality is that there are very few foreign marquees that an Australian team could afford in a key position anyway, MST mentioned Dan Carter previously, well unless he is prepared to take a $800'000 pay cut then no Australian team could afford him.Barrett, McKenzie etc wouldn't be prepare to give up their All Black ambitions, and if they did it would be for the riches of Europe instead.

 

[mst]

What about looking into bringing Zack Holmes back? Or converting Kyle Godwin back to a 10 and looking into 12 options?

Ironically, the Kiwi being discussed is a 12 being converted to a 10. I think Holmes has found his home in Europe. As for Godwin, we need him to concentrate on being a decent 12.

 

[Brumby Runner]

@Mst - You'd have better luck reading tea leaves to predict the winner of the next RWC than you would trying to divine truths from the Richard Graham and immediately post-Richard Graham era of the Reds.

As an aside, your post above confuses me BR. McIntyre is not a good kicker while Greene has a much more considerable boot on him. What I saw of Mason indicated his strengths even at a young age were in attacking play and passing the ball to the right runner.

I'm assuming that McIntyre was one of the better kickers in his school years. That seems to be the selection criterion first and foremost at schoolboy level.

 

[NTT]

Precisely Highlander..

This obsession with bringing in foreign players for quick fixes doesn't remedy long term flaws in Australian rugby, this NRC is evidence enough that there are quality halfbacks in Australian, so why were 2 of the starting Super Rugby players ineligible for the Wallabies??


I'm a fan of marquee players when done smartly, but it needs to be done in a coordinated manner between the ARU and provinces with longer term objectives in mInd, and not just the lazy/easy option out because teams haven't recruited or planned well enough.

I disagree. Both clubs who brought in marquee halfbacks have a stable of young 9s coming through who can only benefit from having international quality 9s to learn off. I know Louwrens, Ruru and Taylor have benefited from having Mathewson over at the Force. Plus Mathewson did a lot of community rugby appearances and clinics that dont get reported on.
Im sure Powell and the other Brumbies 9, whose name escapes me, will be better for having Cubelli to learn from. This will provide both clubs with better options coming through at 9 for the years to come.

 

[TOCC]

That's really subjective, there really is no substitute for actual game time.. sure someone like Cubelli and Mathewson were able to pass on some of their knowledge to the other halfbacks, but I'd be hesitant to say that 'knowledge' was equal to or greater than the benefit they could have received from actually stating or getting game time.

 

[Alex Sharpe]

Why not have a chat to Berrick Barnes. He's lollying around in the Japan leage could be tempted by some more challenging rugby. Woukd be a great pick up id have thought

 

[dru]

I'd be checking Africa, myself. Still think it's n outrage that Super Rugby lost Boschoff to Europe. There will be others.

 

[RugbyReg]

Brumbies have signed this guy who, as many knowledgeable pundits suggest, was the best player in GPS Rugby up here this year.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

So, just an update on the squad for next year....


PROPS

Scott Sio
Alan Ala'alatoa
Ben Alexander
Nic Mayhew
Les Makin
Faaleilei Sione (EPS)

HOOKERS

Saia Fainga'a
Josh Mann-Rea
Robbie Abel

LOCKS

Sam Carter
Rory Arnold
Blake Enever
Tom Staniforth

BACKROW

Scott Fardy
Jarrad Butler
Jordan Smiler
Chris Alcock
Lolo Fasikolea
Ben Hyne (EPS)
Robert Valetini (EPS)

SCRUMHALVES

Tomas Cubelli
Joe Powell
Ryan Lonergan (development contract)

FLYHALVES

Nic Jooste
Lilo

CENTRES

Kyle Godwin
Tevita Kuridrani
Andrew Smith
Jordan Jackson-Hope (EPS)

WINGS

Henry Speight
Nigel Ah Wong
Lausii Taliauli
James Dargaville

FULLBACK

Aidan Toua (sigh.)
Robbie Coleman


We still need a flyhallf and a competent fullback....

In fact our outside back stocks look a bit weak.

With that roster I can't see brumbies being finals contenders next year. Major losses of key players with replacements that are average than standouts.

Lack of quality cover for 2, 8, 10,
12 pretty glaring.


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[WorkingClassRugger]

Brumbies have signed this guy who, as many knowledgeable pundits suggest, was the best player in GPS Rugby up here this year.

Surprised an NRL club didn't throw some money his way.