France vs Wallabies, EOYT 2010

[Gnostic]

The question will always be, putting aside the mechanics of it: why did we let them?

The key was Barnes at 12 he led the defensive line forward.[/I]

That is why the Twickers debacle happened IMO Lee. The defensive line was passive and this allowed the Poms to have easy front foot ball. There were indeed other factors such as the massive performance of a couple of England players and a very balanced backrow, but the defensive line was for me the defining factor. It allowed their backrow for instance the ability to be moving forward and it allowed the big runners to target Cooper.

Was you that said something like the size issue with the midfield was a furphy? I look back and note that neither Horan or Little were especially big especially 91 to 95. I do not see size as an issue at all in the midfield it is the speed of the defensive line and the effectiveness of the first up tackles that matter. Even offloads matter little if they are being made under pressure behind the gain line.

It should be noted that the positioning of Cooper in defence was totally changed ofter Twickers and this could have been as much a factor in the change between that game and those following. BUT neither the Italians or the Frogs offered anything in attack like the Poms did. The question was how much of that was due to the improved defensive work and how much due to the lack of any real backline for the Italians or the strange selections and Traille at 10 for the Frogs?

 

[en_force_er]

• We are accustomed to lauding Pocock, the fetcher, and Pocock the dominant tackler but we don't, or at least I don't, give enough kudos to Pocock the ball-runner.

I agree, though his ball running style isn't dominant he often takes the ball 2-3 channels out and makes the advantage line then sets a ruck for some great quick ball.

Ideally more of our tight 5ers would be doing this but as long as it get's done we will be A-OK.

 

[Newter]

4) I agree fully the only way for Alexander ever to get selected at THP for Oz again is for him to play there for the Ponies. Given Palmer and Ma'afu are on the book and Jerry Y had that broken ankle (which I would expect to keep him out for the start of the Super Series) he will play LHP. If the Wallabies are serious about the scrum they will have to select horses for courses. On the heavy slow tracks seen in the NH there is a strong case to select a "potplant" type THP who can achor the scrum. I understand what Deans is doing selecting a very mobile front row but it is basically accepting that the scrum will be shit. As there can be so few scrums in the game perhaps this is a valid winning approach, but I just don't like conceding such a traditional part of the game. The fact that the scrums are a total lottery refereeing wise it re-inforces the fact that it may not be worth selecting for a strong scrum and compromising in other areas.

It isn't just mobility. Virtually every Australian prop in Super rugby is quick around the field, makes tackles and has a high clean out rate. Ben Alexander offers the best running game from a Wallaby frontrower since Jeremy Paul. Since we have a team that thrives on constructive attack from phase ball, we need forwards who can run straight and set up front foot possession. It's no coincidence we beat the All Blacks for the first time in 10 games as soon as Alexander came back. He was huge in Hong Kong.

Alexander's strengths are wasted in the taxing position of tighthead - he needs to play loosehead and spend his fuel on running the ball. Drop Robinson to the bench, and play one of McKenzie's proteges at #3.

 

[Lee Grant]

Alexander's strengths are wasted in the taxing position of tighthead - he needs to play loosehead and spend his fuel on running the ball.

Agree with this. Hopefully the Brumbies coaches will prevail and brook no interference from the Oz coaches whose experiment, started 2 years ago, looked promising at first but has since turned to dust. Fortunately, in a sense, the Brumbies don't seem to have another decent LHP in the stable - not that I thought that Alexander was stellar in the scrums wearing the 1 jersey for the Ponies this year.

Fat Cat had better be on his mettle in the S15. Even when he was healthy during the 2010 S14 he wasn't the dominant scrummager we were crowing about earlier. In the France game the Oz scrum looked better when he came on after Alexander was carded, but the French hooker Servat, a noted scrummager, had to go off at about the same time. Then after oranges LHP Domingo, 2nd only to the injured Barcela in France, got rested.

The jury is still out for me on Fat Cat, but I'll back him to come back - provided my opinion that he has lost ground has merit in the first place.

 

[Newter]

Agree with this. Hopefully the Brumbies coaches will prevail and brook no interference from the Oz coaches whose experiment, started 2 years ago, looked promising at first but has since turned to dust. Fortunately, in a sense, the Brumbies don't seem to have another decent LHP in the stable - not that I thought that Alexander was stellar in the scrums wearing the 1 jersey for the Ponies this year.

Fat Cat had better be on his mettle in the S15. Even when he was healthy during the 2010 S14 he wasn't the dominant scrummager we were crowing about earlier. In the France game the Oz scrum looked better when he came on after Alexander was carded, but the French hooker Servat, a noted scrummager, had to go off at about the same time. Then after oranges LHP Domingo, 2nd only to the injured Barcela in France, got rested.

The jury is still out for me on Fat Cat, but I'll back him to come back - provided my opinion that he has lost ground has merit in the first place.

He's still a great prop forward, but he's not suited to the game the Wallabies are playing. Robinson is a trench warfare, scrum-bash-drive type forward who fits right in at the Waratahs under Phil Waugh, but doesn't give the Wallabies the speed of play they've built their game on.

It's a shame he's not a tighthead.

 

[Groucho]

He's still a great prop forward, but he's not suited to the game the Wallabies are playing. Robinson is a trench warfare, scrum-bash-drive type forward who fits right in at the Waratahs under Phil Waugh, but doesn't give the Wallabies the speed of play they've built their game on.

It's a shame he's not a tighthead.

What an absolute pile of steaming horseshite. Robinson is a highly skilled and mobile prop with better ball skills than many backs.

 

[Lee Grant]

Yeah, I have no qualms about Robinson's general play; in fact I think he should be more in the trenches, if anything, and knocking guys over with front on tackles more.

This is going to be a fascinating year tracking the progress of the props week by week in the S15 and later in 3N. I hope that one of the prop experts, and I'm looking at you fatprop, will give us a report card of the candidates at about Rd. 10 having made notes of each game along the way.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I think it will be interesting to see how Fat Cat and Alexander play next year. It seems clear that Slipper is the answer at tight head, so now we have the Ben(n)'s fighting it out at loosehead, which isn't a bad thing at all. They both bring plenty in my opinion and hopefully they can get back to their best in the S15.

 

[Newter]

What an absolute pile of steaming horseshite. Robinson is a highly skilled and mobile prop with better ball skills than many backs.

Haha, I didn't even mean to put out the red cape here. I'd invite you to go around for one more charge, but there's a serious point to be made which I think you missed.

It's not a matter of mobility or ball skills. Robinson is mobile, and he can pass. But he can't ream defences in the red zone like Alexander. Bending the line or bursting through a narrow gap is a rare skill, and BA is a natural. Best thing is, he picks his times so well. Probably touches the ball as often as Robinson, but does a lot more with it.

The Wallabies are more reliant on this talent than most teams because they create most of their points from quick phase play. Without a good thrust forward, they won't get it wide quick enough. A forward who can do that is worth his weight in gold.

 

[Gagger]

I'm still not 100% sold on Alexander as a scrummager even when fit and at LHP, whereas I am with Benn

 

[tranquility]

I think it will be interesting to see how Fat Cat and Alexander play next year. It seems clear that Slipper is the answer at tight head, so now we have the Ben(n)'s fighting it out at loosehead, which isn't a bad thing at all. They both bring plenty in my opinion and hopefully they can get back to their best in the S15.

It is an absolutle debacle that this is the case. Not because James is not a good player, because I rate him very highly. But the very fact that he is becoming the No1 TH prop in Australia when he has played almost none of his Junior career there is mind-boggling. What are these other specialist TH doing? I hope Palmer has a massive season for the Brumbies with a little more opportunity.

 

[TheTruth]

I think it will be interesting to see how Fat Cat and Alexander play next year. It seems clear that Slipper is the answer at tight head, so now we have the Ben(n)'s fighting it out at loosehead, which isn't a bad thing at all. They both bring plenty in my opinion and hopefully they can get back to their best in the S15.

Agree TBH
Robo only played 45 minutes of great rugby on the EOYT - the last game - he needs to be consistent game in and game out - he had more opportunity than most and was only the last 2 games that he was dropped - that seemed to galvanise him into playing a blinder off the bench against France.

Hopefully he will find form in 2011 - if he does then IMO deserves No.1 (and not Alexander) as is a better scrummager than Alexander. Agree that Slipper should be No. 3 - stiffened scrum whenever he was playing that spot - but also very good LHP - Looks like a long career for him in Wallabies.

Feel a bit for Alexander - THP for OZ, LHP for Ponies

 

[TheTruth]

It is an absolutle debacle that this is the case. Not because James is not a good player, because I rate him very highly. But the very fact that he is becoming the No1 TH prop in Australia when he has played almost none of his Junior career there is mind-boggling. What are these other specialist TH doing? I hope Palmer has a massive season for the Brumbies with a little more opportunity.

When at school (TSS) he played only THP (2006 and 2007 i think) and same for OZ schools. as a junior was a 10, then went to 8 then to 4 or 5 with big Robert Simmons (at TSS) then to 3

 

[Gnostic]

Here is a self contradicting point in Oz Rugby. On the one hand we the critics (professional and amateur) have been deriding the Wallabies pigs for lack of tight drive and combative strength in the tight. On the other hand these same critcis now hold up that Alexander is the best LHP in Oz because of his running ability where as Robinson is more suited to "tench warfare".

I want players who are the best in their respective positions and fulfill the core business of those respective positions. IMO Alexander does not do it at THP (though as I said I can see what Deans' is aiming for there, this is re-inforced with the selection of Slipper over Weeks).

As LG said, the success of the Oz scrum in the 2nd stanza against the French cannot really be gauged as they went to a 3rd or 4th grade front row. For that reason even though I am impressed with Slipper I am reluctant to jump on the bandwagon and declare him the panacea for our THP issues.

I still say there is an issue of conditions, what use is there in picking a free running front row in heavy, rainy and/or blustery conditions that require a more conservative game plan? In those cases the weak scrummaging of such a front row (and others) will come back to haunt the Wallabies. Where are the tested and blooded "trench warfare" selections?

 

[DPK]

Here is a self contradicting point in Oz Rugby. On the one hand we the critics (professional and amateur) have been deriding the Wallabies pigs for lack of tight drive and combative strength in the tight. On the other hand these same critcis now hold up that Alexander is the best LHP in Oz because of his running ability where as Robinson is more suited to "tench warfare".

As I understood it, his running ability was more in the area of driving through the tackle to gain extra yards, an important skills in "trench warfare" games. Also, driving over the line to score from close.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Gnostic, mostly agree in that we want the players in certain positions (like prop) to have the core skills for that position. For me, a front-rowers core skill set is the scrum and lifting in the lineout and restarts. If they cannot perform in those areas, which are significant, then I think we need to look elsewhere. If we can get guys who are at least up to the standard (if not dominant) but offer more around the paddock, then I can accept and actually get on board with that. What I cannot accept are props and hookers who cannot scrummage at international level. It's their primary job.

Tranq, I agree that its not ideal for us to be relying on Slipper to anchor the scrum, but where are the other great TH's? The kiddie has shown he's got heaps of ticker and has let nobody down, right from when he came on in the Perth test. I'd like to see other blokes really work hard in the domestic season next year to keep pushing the incumbents though.

I think that we are starting to see a core group forming and that pleases me greatly. Apart from a couple of key positions in the pack, I think we know what our best team is now.

 

[Lee Grant]

As LG said, the success of the Oz scrum in the 2nd stanza against the French cannot really be gauged as they went to a 3rd or 4th grade front row.

Well, the reserve hooker and LHP weren't there on merit but more on development, and though not to the point: their best TH lock, Nallet, couldn't play because of injury. The starting LHP, Domingo, is a terrific 2nd string and France wouldn't have missed Barcella much since he has been out so long already. The run-on hooker, Servat, is also 1st string.

Their 2nd half LHP, Schuster, isn't much of a scrummager but it was fair enough for him to get a run and his 2nd cap though, because Poux, who can play on both heads, Lecouls and Faure are older. Their form in the race for the 3rd hooker place in the RWC squad is established.

Come to think of it: Guirado, the reserve hooker, had to be on the bench anyway because the normal backup, Szarzewski, was suspended when playing for SF a few weeks before. It was a small matter of head-butting somebody right in front of referee Gauzere, who, incidentally, didn't say boo at the time. It may have been a deplorable act but you couldn't fault his choice of target: Genevois, the Toulon hooker.

Guirado has had only one run on game for France: against Fiji on their EOYT, and is not a very good scrummager. I'd rate his Perpignan team mate Tincu as better, though mad. As we saw: he's not brilliant throwing to the lineout either. He's not a 3rd string international hooker IMO but France don't have a lot of quality in the position, as only Kayser comes to mind as an alternative 3rd string.

Mas is one of the best THPs in the world and was always going to bluff a referee against a tyro like Slipper in the first half; it's the way of the world. He also had Fat Cat collapsing afterwards but somehow Oz got the penalty.

Even with those excuses the 2nd half front row of France should have done better than they did. As mentioned before: they have all packed down for Perpignan, and often together; so some credit should go to to the Wallaby front rowers.

Nevertheless the 2010 scrum nightmare is ongoing IMO. It's just like Nightmare On Elm Street and the heroine has been safe for 2 minutes, but the scary music is about to start up again.

.

 

[Lee Grant]

I'm not sure where to put this article by the excellent Paul Rees as it was before last weekend's HC matches. But it is germane to the situation of the French national team and will be of interest to some.


THE POWER OF FRANCE'S TOP 14

French rugby has long been regarded from outside as an enigma. It has been seen as an antidote to the trench rugby being waged elsewhere; racehorses rather than shire horses, as one writer put it in the 1960s, a feast of unpredictability.

A few weeks after France were thrashed by Australia in Paris, taking their points conceded against two Tri-Nations sides this year to three figures after crashing to South Africa in the summer, seven French clubs lined up in the third round of the Heineken Cup.

Racing Métro were at Saracens, Toulon were in Reading to face London Irish, Perpignan welcomed Leicester, Castres were at home to Edinburgh, Toulouse travelled to Glasgow, Clermont Auvergne entertained Leinster and Biarritz, who had not lost since September, went to Aironi, who had not won all season.

Biarritz were the biggest bankers to win but they ended up the only losers. If they confirmed the stereotype of the French being poor travellers, Racing, Toulon and (again) Toulouse shredded it. All the leading French clubs have at least a handful of players from other countries: old shibboleths now have little relevance.

The French, or at least some clubs, have had an ambivalent attitude towards the Heineken Cup and the Challenge Cup, yet at the halfway stage of this season's tournaments they top all five pools of the latter and two out of six of the former.

Biarritz and Toulouse lead their Heineken Cup pools having played two of their first three matches away from home. Castres, Clermont, Toulon, Perpignan and Racing are all handily placed, with no French side losing more than one match. Cue the complaints from Premiership clubs about the relatively low salary cap in England.

Leicester lead the way, yet they are well-placed in their group, one point ahead of Perpignan and Scarlets who each have only one more home match left compared to the Tigers' two. Northampton are one of only two clubs with a 100% record and Wasps are two points behind unbeaten Toulouse. Bath and London Irish have it all to do after suffering a defeat at home and Saracens will struggle not to finish at the bottom of their pool.

Yet if the club scene appears healthy in France – the race for the Top 14 title is open, with such sides as Stade Français and Perpignan not in the top half of the table – the national side is another matter, even if Les Bleus won the grand slam last season. There are tensions between club and country that have left the national coach, Marc Lièvremont, claiming that he is having to work against the Top 14 sides.

The Toulon coach, Philippe Saint-André, whose starting line-up at London Irish on Sunday contained only five players who were qualified to play for France, said this week that in France, the Top 14 is regarded as more important than the national team. "There are more people watching and more interest in the newspapers," he said. "It looks a little bit like the English Premier League in football."

It was ever thus. In their 1961 book, The Rise of French Rugby, Alex Potter and Georges Duthen, talking about the game at the start of the 1930s, wrote: "The mass of fans loved the international games; for the club championship, it had a passion. The sporting community, particularly in the south of France, seemed to live for this competition. Local rivalries, especially in the regional finals, were white hot. Qualify at any cost was the motto. Nothing was barred. Brutal play grew. Brawls, pugilistics and worse broke out almost everywhere.

"Fans, appearing to be suffering from some frightful grievance, invaded grounds. Referees (all tough chaps, for the non-tough declined to take the risks) were jostled, insulted and 'if necessary' beaten. If a team were reckless enough to win away from home, so much the worse for it."

France were thrown out of the Five Nations Championship that decade as clubs, the number of which had more than quadrupled, decided that amateurism was for others. In 1952 the French Rugby Federation (FFR) only survived a call to be suspended from the International Rugby Board, which said it was disturbed by the actions of some clubs, after agreeing to disband the championship on the grounds that players were paid, along with transfer fees, that referees were regularly beaten up and that players were given bogus identities.

The FFR relented after the clubs agreed to observe scrupulously the regulations governing amateurism and fair play. Today, the club game only thrives at a professional level in France and England, with all the other major unions having taken the regional/provincial/franchise route, but in one sense the French stand alone.

The deal over the management of elite players agreed by the Premiership and Twickenham gives the England management regular access to the national squad and a joint say in aspects like treatment of injuries. The Top 14 clubs agreed that this season at least 50% of all squads would be homegrown players, with the figure rising to 70% from next season, but restrictions do not apply to match-day squads.

Lièvremont, who wanted the Top 14 to be trimmed to 12 clubs, is envious of Johnson. "If French rugby retains this present structure then we will suffer other such defeats [Australia], no matter who the coach is," he said this week, arguing that France should adopt the English model of close co-operation between club and country.

He has as much chance as Aironi have of winning the Heineken Cup next May. The spirit of liberty and independence runs through French rugby; the tricolore flutters alone.