McCaw finds a new way to cheat

[Dam0]

OK, Richie's not the only one, but he's in the vanguard.

Instead of clearing out by pushing players back, he's clearing out by pulling them from the opposition side. Apart from the fact that it's offside as soon as the ruck is formed, I reckon this kind of grapple move is dangerous. I hope the refs find a way of identifying this and getting it out of the game ASAP.

Getting back to the original point that Scarfman made.


I had another look through focussing on McCaw and I did notice what Scarfman was talking about. I would say however:

1) At the vast majority of the breakdowns, McCaw cleared out in a conventional driving fashion, we are only talking about 7-8 breakdowns where he has done anything unusual.

2) The action in question involved McCaw binding onto a player, keeping hold of that player and pulling them out the side of the ruck. I cannot see how it could be illegal, except on one occasion when he probably was off his feet and continuing to play the man. In particular, calling it offside is odd considering in the examples that I noticed he never unbound from the player. I imagine that if he pulled the player back into the breakdown, thereby collapsing it on itself, that would be illegal, but I didn't see that.

3) The technique was a far cry from the one that I indicated with the coaching video. He didn't twist and pull on anyone's neck. Most of the time the contact was with the waist or slightly above. That video was a red herring. I don't see how what McCaw did could be considered dangerous.

4) It was not particularly successful on the whole, as he was generally unable to move the player fast enough to gain quick ball. (in fact, watching McCaw closely showed me that he didn't play all that well overall).


In short, a mountain made out of a molehill

 

[Sully]

The thread has been hijacked by it's title.

The 'clean out' if you call it that involves binding on the player and twisting to the side and using your body weight to drag him to the side. In the case of Horwill hamstring his foot slipped out and the players weight dragged his upper body towards knee. there are numerous examples of it going wrong and the discussion should never have focussed on Ritchie

 

[Dan54]

Ahh Sully, but is has focussed on Richie, the unfortunate thing is with these repeated comments about Richie on here make me wonder why the likes of Scarfie , Gagger etc even watch rugby, they obviously think the game is run very dishonestly by cheating refs, who are not penalising Richie to their standard, the unfortunate other conclusion is if they don't think most of top refs in world are cheats, is that there are a lot of real whingers in here, and I actually don't find most of my Aussie mates are like that.

 

[cyclopath]

I have to agree.
The thread title was only ever going to start the usual jousting, and the actual point of the original post, the type of clean-out involving this twisting movement, was always going to be lost.
That said, I think Gagger has posted more than enough good analytical stuff to satisfy anyone that he watches a lot of rugby.

 

[Dam0]

It looks like Pocock is playing well now. The cheating allegations are continuing on from the World Cup.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbyn...eakdown-tactics-91466-31148982/#ixzz1xUOZKo2X

 

[Gagger]

Richie McCaw is one of the biggest cheats the game of rugby has ever seen pushes the laws to their limits like no-one else, which is a special skill. What's more he fucking well gets away with it plays the ref excellently - any decent open side should befocusing more on his game than cheating doing the same.

What's more, pointing out besmirching Richie's tactics aceness is just common senseunbecoming of ANY rugby fan, and it is all of our solemn duties to range the internets righting such wrongs.

 

[Bon]

I thought he played very well in Brisbane and is in my opinion the current master of the breakdown. Players come and players go perhaps in years to come the arguement may be about who was the best [or worst] cheat. Mc Caw or Pockock

 

[Scarfman]

OK, the title was provocative, so I wasn't taking the high road there. But Richie's involvement is important. When it's just a couple of no-name thugs from the Joburg Lions doing it, then it's not as important. When Richie McCaw makes it his PLan A, then that is worth raising as an issue.

I'll respond to Dam0's points, then leave it alone.

Getting back to the original point that Scarfman made.


I had another look through focussing on McCaw and I did notice what Scarfman was talking about. I would say however:

1) At the vast majority of the breakdowns, McCaw cleared out in a conventional driving fashion, we are only talking about 7-8 breakdowns where he has done anything unusual. That's still a lot. He didn't used to do this.

2) The action in question involved McCaw binding onto a player, keeping hold of that player and pulling them out the side of the ruck. I cannot see how it could be illegal, except on one occasion when he probably was off his feet and continuing to play the man. In particular, calling it offside is odd considering in the examples that I noticed he never unbound from the player. I imagine that if he pulled the player back into the breakdown, thereby collapsing it on itself, that would be illegal, but I didn't see that.Nah, c'mon man. He could not possibly be said to go through the gate in most of them. In a few he was standing in an offside position and pulling the man out of the ruck.

3) The technique was a far cry from the one that I indicated with the coaching video. He didn't twist and pull on anyone's neck. Most of the time the contact was with the waist or slightly above. That video was a red herring. I don't see how what McCaw did could be considered dangerous. The George Smith video? I thought Smith and McCaw applied the technique as safely as possible. If players are gfoing to start using the crocodile roll (and I strongly think they shouldn't) then at least grab around the body, not the neck.

4) It was not particularly successful on the whole, as he was generally unable to move the player fast enough to gain quick ball. (in fact, watching McCaw closely showed me that he didn't play all that well overall).I hope you're right, and this technique falls out of fashion.


In short, a mountain made out of a molehill Well, to put that another way, I'm raising this as an issue. I'm hoping to bring attention to this technique to get it looked at by the law. I really have no time this week to make that video, but I hope to get some time soon.

Cheers.

 

[Bullrush]

It looks like Pocock is playing well now. The cheating allegations are continuing on from the World Cup.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbyn...eakdown-tactics-91466-31148982/#ixzz1xUOZKo2X

""I really think I'm going to have to work on our tackler gettng back up on his feet and competing for the ball because it's clearly evident you are allowed to do that down here whereas maybe where we are you would get penalised for that," he said"

I don't get what the problem is. You roll away if you're not gonna get to your feet?!

 

[Scarfman]

Yeah, it's an interesting idea, Bullrush, that the tackler has to roll away (instead of immediately get to his feet and play the ball). This is what one Aussie said on that site:

RugbyDownUnder

9:18 AM on 10/6/2012
The Welsh reaction has generally been, well, gracious. Shame that Edwards has to spoil it. He moans that Pocock gets back to his feet and plays the ball, instead of rolling away. But the laws of rugby do not require the tackler to roll away. The law covering this area of play (law 15.4) says the tackler "must immediately release the tackled player", and then "must immediately get up or move away from the tackled player and from the ball at once", and then "must get up before playing the ball and then may play the ball from any direction."

So he doesn't have to roll away. He must release the tackled player, but having done so, he has a choice: he can move away, or get to his feet. And once he is on his feet, he can contest the ball.

Oh, while we are at it, law 15.5, which covers the tackled player, puts the same requirement on the tackled player: when he goes to ground, he must pass or release the ball immediately, but having done that, he too "must also get up or move away from it at once."

Anyway, I wish Wales all the best for next weekend. You're a team I always enjoy watching.

Read More http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/06/09/wales-defence-coach-shaun-edwards-bemoans-david-pocock-breakdown-tactics-91466-31148982/#ixzz1xXyVOB9o​

When you read those laws in black and white, it suggests that a lot of southern hemisphere loose flanker work is illegal. The northerners tend to clean out rather than steal, which is maybe not a bad way of playing the game.

 

[Bullrush]

Yeah, it's an interesting idea, Bullrush, that the tackler has to roll away (instead of immediately get to his feet and play the ball). This is what one Aussie said on that site:


When you read those laws in black and white, it suggests that a lot of southern hemisphere loose flanker work is illegal. The northerners tend to clean out rather than steal, which is maybe not a bad way of playing the game.

Do you think so? I'm not sure what's illegal about getting back to your feet and contesting for the ball.

If you make the tackle, relase the tackled player, get up to your feet (which would constitute 'moving away from the ball' I reckon) then you are able to play the ball fromany direction.

Maybe that's not how the NH teams play - but they all lost on the weekend

I've got no problem with Pocock's steals - they all looked pretty leggit to me.

 

[drewprint]

 

[Scarfman]

Do you think so? I'm not sure what's illegal about getting back to your feet and contesting for the ball.

If you make the tackle, relase the tackled player, get up to your feet (which would constitute 'moving away from the ball' I reckon) then you are able to play the ball fromany direction.

Maybe that's not how the NH teams play - but they all lost on the weekend

I've got no problem with Pocock's steals - they all looked pretty leggit to me.

I'm not sure that true fetchers ever "move away from the ball." In the SH, we say that you must allow the tackled player to play the ball. So, the fetcher waits 0.0003 seconds before getting his hands on the pill.

Anyway, this probably belongs in the laws we want to change thread.

 

[Bullrush]

I'm not sure that true fetchers ever "move away from the ball." In the SH, we say that you must allow the tackled player to play the ball. So, the fetcher waits 0.0003 seconds before getting his hands on the pill.

Anyway, this probably belongs in the laws we want to change thread.

But I don't want it changed...it seems fine the way it is to me....hehe.

Do you want it changed?

 

[da_grubster]

Another video scarf man? Really? You need to get out more.

I do fear for you when Richie retires. I get the feeling you need him far more than he needs you.

 

[Scarfman]

Grubster, you've cut me open with your sharp wit and psychological probing. [sobs ]

I see things so much more clearly now. Maybe, for the first time in my whole life.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

 

[Lindommer]

Another video scarf man? Really? You need to get out more.

Scarfie goes to Bathurst occasionally, does that count?

 

[Dan54]

Hey Grubs, how you going, haven't seen you about for awhile.

 

[da_grubster]

Good thanks Danny, sort of forgot about this place after the wobs were dispatched in the RWC semi final ;-)

Started a new job at Msft the day after the final as well so had less time for defending McCaw's honour against the Australian hordes.

I see Mike turned 40 yesterday. geez, time flies eh mate?

Any plans for an Italian sojourn soon?

 

[da_grubster]

Grubster, you've cut me open with your sharp wit and psychological probing. [sobs ]

I see things so much more clearly now. Maybe, for the first time in my whole life.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

I get that a lot Scarfie