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Northern Tours 2021 - NZ, SA, etc

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Basically agree with your thoughts on both games Jeffery. ABs game was a fairly hard watch, not just because they looked not quite there, but even camera work was poor, it seemed to be controlled by someone with a soccer background. ABs I thought were in one of these games where they weren't switched on enough, doesn't matter how you put it , players will have at back of mind they had game won before they went on?
By gee it's interesting to see how refs in NH are happier to allow players off feet at breakdown.
Have to say reasonably enjoyed the Boks/Welsh game, a bit of a grind at times, but well worth the watch !
 

BDA

Peter Johnson (47)
i really hope the refereeing in the nz/italy and sa/wales games isnt a sign of things to come for the next few weeks. The benefit of the doubt seems to be given to the defending side way more often than the attacking side. My biggest gripe is the apparent abandoning of any attempt to police offside defenders. Wales consistently had 2 or 3 defenders. The referee just decided to ignore it. Same thing from the italians (but not as blatent or consistent). If teams want to play rush defence they need to be held accountable or it just becomes unfair for the team that want to actually play rugby. World rugby need to start thinking about what kind of rugby they want to be promoting at the next world cup.
 

Drew

Bob Davidson (42)
Watching Arg v France. Can’t see the goal line drop out being fair for the attacking team if they’re held up
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Um, didn't Billy B make a big deal not so long ago wrt eliminating red/ green jersey clashes?


I think that's a wrap for today at least
 
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Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
Um, didn't Billy B make a big deal not so long ago wrt eliminating red/ green jersey clashes?


I think that's a wrap for today at least

Wales got hammered in scrums and gave away key penalties from that to me cost them a rare win over South Africa. While France for all the hype thinking how good their first team must be after sending out their b team to Oz, struggled to put away Argentina.
But the worry for me is Oz game against Scotland as we struggled to put away Japan whilst Ireland hammered them 58-5 overnight…
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Brad Weber's injury must be serious, an SOS has gone out.....


As noted in the article it's hard to see him starting this week except in an absolute emergency but I'd expect to see him at least on the bench next week.
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
All Blacks: Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan, Rieko Ioane, Anton Lienert-Brown, Sevu Reece, Beauden Barrett, TJ Perenara, Ardie Savea, Dalton Papalii, Ethan Blackadder, Sam Whitelock (captain), Brodie Retallick, Nepo Laulala, Codie Taylor, Joe Moody. Reserves: Dane Coles, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Tyrel Lomax, Tupou Vaa'i, Akira Ioane, Finlay Christie, Richie Mo'unga, David Havili.

No DMac probably the main talking point. Not a fan of AL-B at 12, but.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
All Blacks: Jordie Barrett, Will Jordan, Rieko Ioane, Anton Lienert-Brown, Sevu Reece, Beauden Barrett, TJ Perenara, Ardie Savea, Dalton Papalii, Ethan Blackadder, Sam Whitelock (captain), Brodie Retallick, Nepo Laulala, Codie Taylor, Joe Moody. Reserves: Dane Coles, Karl Tu'inukuafe, Tyrel Lomax, Tupou Vaa'i, Akira Ioane, Finlay Christie, Richie Mo'unga, David Havili.

No DMac probably the main talking point. Not a fan of AL-B at 12, but.
I not surprised no DMac on bench, they got plenty of cover for 15 and 10. A little surpried moving Ioane to 13, but think it maybe more about Havili struggling a little at 12 with rush defence? Like you WOB, I prefer ALB at 13 , funnily enough because first few years I reckoned he a 12, but I not to worried with tweaking midfield to see what works best.
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
^ AL-B at 12 tends to crab & that's also a weakness in RI's game. I can see Jordan & Reece running out of room but I guess it's possible they might open a wee hole for JBar coming from deep & hitting the line hard.
 

Jeffrey

Chris McKivat (8)
There's a distinct lack of size in the ABs back without Caleb. I think Foster has realised that the midfield needs more thrust, and the back that gives them the most go-forward is Reiko. Reiko is a flawed 13, so it comes down to ALB to plug the gaps - ALB is a player who is good but not outstanding in any one area, but he has no major weaknesses. I think Foster has also realised that the Left Wing also needs some thrust, and of all the back 3, Sevu is the best choice (I mean Bridge, Dmac, Jordan, Jordie are all not that type of player).

The other possible dilemma is at blindside. Is Ethan a) a blindside and b) the top blindside at the moment? His biggest selling point is his workrate in both tight and loose - something that Ioane, Jacobsen, and Sotutu all don't seem committed to. But he lacks that top 5% in many categories, at present his ceiling doesn't seem as high as the other 3. Of course, every time Tyrel dons the jersey I get a bit worried, especially as his opposite is (admittedly a fading) Healy.

Aki and Ringrose will be a good challenge - Aki is very physical, while Ringrose is more in the Conrad Smith mold. I don't think Lowe and Gibson-Park are all that good, even if they do showcase decent form. Keenan is a skillful 15, a little like Cory Jane of the past, while Conway is more of an industrious wing.

The real challenge is going to be the forwards. It's a brutal front row with Furlong and Porter, and Healy off the bench. I'm very surprised that they decided to swap Henderson for Beirne, but either are very good at disrupting mauls (which has been a good weapon for the ABs of late). James Ryan is quality, if a little flat (like Codie Taylor in 2021). That back-row will be competitive. Doris and Conan will ask some questions with their ball carrying, and both are good lineout jumpers. Josh Van Der Flier never quite reached the heights when he first burst onto the scene, but he's nuggety and will get stuck in.

Looking forward to the
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
There a bit of a covid scare in Irish team, someone has tested positive, waiting for second test result!
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Well that was a great test!! Well done Ireland, real deserved winners, best team all game I thought. I not real upset, that is what test rugby is, a supberb game and Ireland just belted us at every stage of game!!
 

Jeffrey

Chris McKivat (8)
Terrible performance from New Zealand, but it might be exactly what we need. We have been trumpeting our points and tries this year, but it's deceptive with games against Tonga Fiji and USA.

A lot of players played really poorly, and it's quite pointless running through everyone because it is the systems, systemic issues under which players underperform.

1) the first fundamental systemic issue is our defence. it seems like we defended really well on the line and kept Ireland out somehow. Absolutely not. Every tier 1 team rushes on defence, because it is the best way to defend, except New Zealand. When you don't rush what happens? You have a bollocking Irish carrier smashing into your line at full speed while you are standing still, making easy metres, no pressure on the scrumhalf, no pressure on the ball carrier. The lack of urgency in defence is what caused us to be camped on our own line in the first place, much as the goalline scramble was good.

This is a problem that has existed since Hansen, but we still defend in the same stupid manner trying to keep the line. If we don't rush, we don't win the World Cup. I think the best remedy for this is engaging John Mitchell or Joe Schmidt ( now that he's back). Becuase our defence system is poor.

2) attack. When Aaron Mauger was coach for the Crusaders, they had an incredibly moronic tactic of trying to get the ball to the wing as quickly as possible. It was a fucking disaster, and it was fucking disaster today. What's with the obsession of going wide wide wide before you even go forward. Are our wingers so much better than our opponents? Absolutely not. Look at Ireland. If you go-forward on first phase, the attack sorts itself out because one side has momentum and one has to realign. But our players have no go forward. They run or pass sideways. Remember at the start of the game simple pass barrett to ALB, who made 10m just running hard at the 10. That's it. That's all you need to do on first phase. Once you do that a few times, it opens up the kicking option.

At the end of the game, 2 attacks were abysmal. One where there 5 on 3 which ended in Sevu Reece crabbing sideways and throwing it out. It was a 5 on 3. Can someone just run straight? Zero defenders committed by attacks. Zero. Then on the next attack, it was a 4 on 3, and David Havili kicks (and kicks poorly at that) and was picked off by Hugo Keenan. Mo'unga who is such a skillful player stands far too deep for some reason of late, and then the backline just shovels it on because no seems capable of carrying it. In the NPC, Leicester Faingaanuku is carving it up running straight. He is much better in defence than Reiko. Can we have him in the AB team please? Quinn Tupeau is not yet near a finished product. But because he runs straight, can we get him to start against France at 12?

3) Leadership. While the Irish yakked non-stop and encouraged each other, Sam Whitelock self-destructed just like he did in RWC 2019. I love Sam Whitelock the player, but he was horrendous today at kick-off, lineout, and rucks. He was shite. Sam - at 20-14 with only about 11 mins left, 5m out, just having had a try ruled out, we have to go for scrum or lineout. The kick serves little purpose 6 points down.

There was an air of defeat, pressure, stress, that permeated through the team. No one to say, hey, look boys, heads up, we are the ABs, we are going to win this. Richie McCaw just had this. He always had his chest out and his drive to win and an incomparable Mana. Look at 2013 when the ABs got the penalty. McCaw's face, ok boys we are going to win now. Read had an optimistic personality that seemed to put pressure on refs. Sam Whitelock is not captain material. There was no one that gave any sort of a positive vibe to push the ABs forward, perhaps just a little from Dane Coles and TJ Perenara, but no one else. Even Retallick went into a shell. For this reason, I think Dane Coles might need to start at hooker even up till 2023. I'm not sure what Codie offers these days, but Coles has that combative spirit and you need a few of them in the team. Everyone is so placid.

4) Adapting. The LO was not working well, because it was telegraphed, the throws were poor. Part of this has to do with how much pressure the hooker is under because he can't hear the call. Then Dalton has to run forward to yell it out, by which time the clock is ticking and the hooker is now under more pressure.

Why can't you just settle on the LO call before you head to the line-out? Where is the adaptability?

The ABs had no possession in the first half. So the talk to the team should be hey, we need to keep the ball, and not follow some existing game plan that in zone A we have to kick, and in zone B we have to run this back move. Keep the ball.

5) passion. Look at James Lowe. He wanted it. So did Doris and Keenan and Sexton and Conan and Furlong and everyone. The Irish wanted it more. O'Mahoney had so many crucial plays in 2018 when they won even though he was way past his best 3 years ago! Today he's still at it; after missing on Savea, he worked his way back to winning that turnover because Havili took too long to pass, and Whitelock couldn't clear him out. That's desire. On the other hand, you have an AB team that was too mild. It didn't mean as much.

Next week, France will likely be a bigger challenge. France is better than Ireland. And they are not mucking around. They're playing most of their stars against Georgia. They will test us, especially if they load up on the big boys like Willemse Cros Alldrit to start, and have guys like Woki and Flament come off the bench.

I hope the French play as well as they can. the more we are pushed, the more we will be forced to act on our weaknesses instead of constantly advocating a sub-optimal system. Our coaches need to be better.
 
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Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Terrible performance from New Zealand, but it might be exactly what we need. We have been trumpeting our points and tries this year, but it's deceptive with games against Tonga Fiji and USA.

A lot of players played really poorly, and it's quite pointless running through everyone because it is the systems, systemic issues under which players underperform.

1) the first fundamental systemic issue is our defence. it seems like we defended really well on the line and kept Ireland out somehow. Absolutely not. Every tier 1 team rushes on defence, because it is the best way to defend, except New Zealand. When you don't rush what happens? You have a bollocking Irish carrier smashing into your line at full speed while you are standing still, making easy metres, no pressure on the scrumhalf, no pressure on the ball carrier. The lack of urgency in defence is what caused us to be camped on our own line in the first place, much as the goalline scramble was good.

This is a problem that has existed since Hansen, but we still defend in the same stupid manner trying to keep the line. If we don't rush, we don't win the World Cup. I think the best remedy for this is engaging John Mitchell or Joe Schmidt ( now that he's back). Becuase our defence system is poor.

2) attack. When Aaron Mauger was coach for the Crusaders, they had an incredibly moronic tactic of trying to get the ball to the wing as quickly as possible. It was a fucking disaster, and it was fucking disaster today. What's with the obsession of going wide wide wide before you even go forward. Are our wingers so much better than our opponents? Absolutely not. Look at Ireland. If you go-forward on first phase, the attack sorts itself out because one side has momentum and one has to realign. But our players have no go forward. They run or pass sideways. Remember at the start of the game simple pass barrett to ALB, who made 10m just running hard at the 10. That's it. That's all you need to do on first phase. Once you do that a few times, it opens up the kicking option.

At the end of the game, 2 attacks were abysmal. One where there 5 on 3 which ended in Sevu Reece crabbing sideways and throwing it out. It was a 5 on 3. Can someone just run straight? Zero defenders committed by attacks. Zero. Then on the next attack, it was a 4 on 3, and David Havili kicks (and kicks poorly at that) and was picked off by Hugo Keenan. Mo'unga who is such a skillful player stands far too deep for some reason of late, and then the backline just shovels it on because no seems capable of carrying it. In the NPC, Leicester Faingaanuku is carving it up running straight. He is much better in defence than Reiko. Can we have him in the AB team please? Quinn Tupeau is not yet near a finished product. But because he runs straight, can we get him to start against France at 12?

3) Leadership. While the Irish yakked non-stop and encouraged each other, Sam Whitelock self-destructed just like he did in RWC 2019. I love Sam Whitelock the player, but he was horrendous today at kick-off, lineout, and rucks. He was shite. Sam - at 20-14 with only about 11 mins left, 5m out, just having had a try ruled out, we have to go for scrum or lineout. The kick serves little purpose 6 points down.

There was an air of defeat, pressure, stress, that permeated through the team. No one to say, hey, look boys, heads up, we are the ABs, we are going to win this. Richie McCaw just had this. He always had his chest out and his drive to win and an incomparable Mana. Look at 2013 when the ABs got the penalty. McCaw's face, ok boys we are going to win now. Read had an optimistic personality that seemed to put pressure on refs. Sam Whitelock is not captain material. There was no one that gave any sort of a positive vibe to push the ABs forward, perhaps just a little from Dane Coles and TJ Perenara, but no one else. Even Retallick went into a shell. For this reason, I think Dane Coles might need to start at hooker even up till 2023. I'm not sure what Codie offers these days, but Coles has that combative spirit and you need a few of them in the team. Everyone is so placid.

4) Adapting. The LO was not working well, because it was telegraphed, the throws were poor. Part of this has to do with how much pressure the hooker is under because he can't hear the call. Then Dalton has to run forward to yell it out, by which time the clock is ticking and the hooker is now under more pressure.

Why can't you just settle on the LO call before you head to the line-out? Where is the adaptability?

The ABs had no possession in the first half. So the talk to the team should be hey, we need to keep the ball, and not follow some existing game plan that in zone A we have to kick, and in zone B we have to run this back move. Keep the ball.

5) passion. Look at James Lowe. He wanted it. So did Doris and Keenan and Sexton and Conan and Furlong and everyone. The Irish wanted it more. O'Mahoney had so many crucial plays in 2018 when they won even though he was way past his best 3 years ago! Today he's still at it; after missing on Savea, he worked his way back to winning that turnover because Havili took too long to pass, and Whitelock couldn't clear him out. That's desire. On the other hand, you have an AB team that was too mild. It didn't mean as much.

Next week, France will likely be a bigger challenge. France is better than Ireland. And they are not mucking around. They're playing most of their stars against Georgia. They will test us, especially if they load up on the big boys like Willemse Cros Alldrit to start, and have guys like Woki and Flament come off the bench.

I hope the French play as well as they can. the more we are pushed, the more we will be forced to act on our weaknesses instead of constantly advocating a sub-optimal system. Our coaches need to be better.
Agree with most of what you said there Jeffery, I thought our defence on goal line was bloody great, but not sure we got it worked out further out. I was also wondering with the sending it out to wings, perhapd we missing a carrier at 12/13. But as I sure you agree, I will double down and say the Irish were really bloody good, and one of reasons we probably showed those frailties!
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Ireland deserved to win that by 15+, the fact we were a TMO call away from leading late (& we've all seen more obvious forward passes not even looked at let alone called back) was just bizarre.


Seems my concern about neither AL-B nor RI running straight enough often enough was well placed. I didn't expect Havili to do the same, though :(
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Ireland deserved to win that by 15+, the fact we were a TMO call away from leading late (& we've all seen more obvious forward passes not even looked at let alone called back) was just bizarre.


Seems my concern about neither AL-B nor RI running straight enough often enough was well placed. I didn't expect Havili to do the same, though :(
I actually thought there was more chance with Havili, he not really good at carting it up.
 

zer0

Jim Lenehan (48)
lol. Imagine having Ian we-have-a-mathematical-chance Foster as your head coach.
 
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