NSW AAGPS Rugby 2013

[Jaghond]

Contrary to some of the earlier doubts , perhaps a different perspective on this could be that it actually provides some serious room for SGS, SBHS & TAS to move forward.

The AAGPS Rugby Competitions (my emphasis) currently exist only for the 1st XV, 2nd XV and from 2012, the 3rd XV. The remainder of teams in every school participate in rugby matches for the enjoyment of participating in a wonderful team sport – and yes I’m sure aspiring one day perhaps to represent their Schools in these competitions. And yes, I’m quite sure that the boys – or perhaps their parents – are in no doubt who has finished the season with however many wins/ losses, for & against etc etc !

Whilst this new competition structure appears to answer the many critics of the previous system – by ensuring more equitable opportunities for all both home & away – and also perhaps by providing those notorious rep team selectors a more formal look at players before rep teams are selected, we are entering a new era – and one would be foolish to envisage that there won’t be some teething problems. Man-management of players will probably become a much bigger issue (headache ?) for coaches, as they seek to keep their “best” XV on the paddock each week. This in turn will hopefully lead to stronger competition for positions from players in the lower grades, as they seek to become a part of the bigger competition. This might mean coaches having to settle on players & positions far earlier than previously – as the bikkies will be up for grabs from the get-go – so rep selectors might have a slightly improved opportunity of seeing players in their “rightful” positions.

Perhaps by providing SGS, SBHS with some breathing space – it will allow them to really put up or shut up, as regards undertaking fundamental change to their rugby programs at the opens levels, which as most know really starts in the much younger age groups, to fight their way back into the premier competitions. I am not aware of any reason that would prevent any of these teams being “reinstated” at some stage in the future if they can show that they deserve to be there.

As to who decides, and when, well that’s something way outside my ability to ascertain at this time !

From what I understand, there will be no fundamental change to the way rugby is played below 1’s, 2’s & 3’s. And in fact, this year has seen the GPS schools far more willing, it would seem, to arrange fixtures with schools / teams from outside the GPS – to ensure that ALL boys have a run on a Saturday – which has got to be a good thing as far as I am concerned, anyway. There is absolutely nothing worse than not having a match to play because the opposition school hasn’t got a D’s- or H’s !

There will no doubt be some issues that have to be sorted out – as CTPE noted for example with handling the reserves issues for 2’s & 3’s if they are playing different schools etc. – but one would hope that this huge change in structure will at least be given a chance.

It will be interesting to see how it all pans out, no doubt. And many would suggest just as interesting as seeing how Mr Cheika might bring about change to the Waratahs……Although hopefully he won’t take as long as the AAGPS Rugby Convenors / Committee have taken to get to this point !
Cheers
The Hound

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Perhaps by providing SGS, SBHS with some breathing space – it will allow them to really put up or shut up, as regards undertaking fundamental change to their rugby programs at the opens levels, which as most know really starts in the much younger age groups, to fight their way back into the premier competitions. I am not aware of any reason that would prevent any of these teams being “reinstated” at some stage in the future if they can show that they deserve to be there.

You have identified the issue: I dont think, however, that there is a will within the school, at the levels that matter, to address the issue through the age groups or even, to the extent it can be, in opens.
This almost completes a process begun by A M Mackerras in the 70s: his only rugby (or other sporting interest) was in the cakes served at afternoon tea.
It is better for the boys in opens to play in competitive games than in the lopsided events that characterized recent seasons. However there is a real danger that this will become grammars rugby escape plan: it will be hard, I would think, to justify compulsory attendance at games for pupils in lower years (as the school has done recently) when you're not the main bill. If so rather than space to breathe it will encourage the decline.
The pen must truly be mightier than the sword.
It is a little known fact that grammar has produced more wallaby captains than any school: certainly that had been the position until 2012, we've had so many this year the stats may need to be verified.


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[Lindommer]

The demise of rugby at Grammar and High with their magnificent rugby heritages (one of Australia's greatest captains, John Thornett, attended High) is a truly sad event. The pressure from recently-arrived Australians to have their children shine academically pushes everything else aside. It's a great shame they can't see past the narrow view of academic results and "smell the roses" along the way, if they did so their children would be much richer for the experience.

Some years ago my wife worked in a physiotherapy practice owned by a Chinese woman who has three children, two of whom went to Ascham and one to Grammar. The boy was typically Asian, a squirt of a kid, and he came home one day with the news Grammar wanted him to try rowing due to his size. Well, he enjoyed it so much and did so well he ended up coxing Grammar's First VIII. Then his rowing mates convinced him to have a go at rugby as he was bloody quick. No, he didn't make the First XV, but he did play on the wing for Grammar's Seconds. His parents knew bugger all about rowing and even less about rugby (which they didn't understand and thought was a "brutal" game) and preferred he put all his spare time into study, but the lad played the sports nevertheless. He made friends at Grammar most of the other Asian boys didn't and now has those friends for life. His HSC results couldn't've been better.

My son attended one of the schools we're discussing here, and something similar happened there. Most of the Asian boys at his school don't seem to mix with the others and speak Chinese among themselves; they play soccer and basketball almost exclusively. Some years before year 12 he became friendly with a Chinese boy from country NSW (maybe that was it). My young bloke and his mates got him into their basketball team, and when they started to win he was one of the crew. They convinced him to try rugby; he loved it (and was quite good at it, making the Fourths) and subsequently gave up his Chinese acquaintances and speaking Chinese socially. As he was a country boy his parents weren't there every weekend and didn't put pressure on him to do the minimum in sports as most Chinese parents seem to do. His HSC results were also exemplary.

My point about these two tales is rugby's inability to engage the changing face of Australian society; these examples are, unfortunately, the exception rather than the rule for immigrant children. Most of us here played rugby in our youth and encourage our children to do likewise, but the vast majority of recently-arrived Australians don't have that rugby background. If those from parts east of Australia are taken out I'd say about 98% of arrivals the last 60 years have NO rugby background. The preference for new Australian families to avoid rugby seems to've crystallised at Grammar and High the last few decades, but it really is something rugby must address.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Lindommer: its a funnny thing - the number of boys who do what this boy did and ignore their parent's strongly held prejudices about rugby, in particular, seems to get less with each year. I don't think that's a reflection of increasing parental respect. I regret to say that I think its just borne of physical laziness - why play a sport as well as you possibly can by training etc. if you can do quadratic equations? [it was probably the quadratic equations that drove me to train harder].

There seems to be a theory that you cant play rugby at a high level and yet do "well" in life beyond rugby: as barbarian showed in a thread a little while ago - John Solomon and his ilk all seemed to get by playing very serious rugby (for no money) and getting medical qualifications and, in some cases, being pretty eminent in their fields: Paul Darvenizia, comes to mind and Brett Robinson though not practicing medicine is a more modern equivalent who prove that formal academic qualifications need not suffer just because you play rugby. i should say I chose medico's only because it seems to be widely accepted that you have to be reasonably intelligent to be one and there's not always (ever?) the lure of a huge financial reward pursuing medicine.

If i were in the business of employing staff, and i hope this isn't illegal, I would be at least as interested in what any candidate had done outside the library and the uni gates as I would be in their academic transcript. And every day that passes in which I deal with the one dimensional graduates of those universities convinces me of the value of extra curricular activity.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Inside Shoulder, I am reminded of two Australians who have received the Rugby World Cup after their team has won Bill.

Dr David Kirk from the Darkness circa 87 was also a Rhodes Scholar IIRC, has gone on to a successful (ish) business career including Fairfax CEO. From the Amateur Rugby Days.

Nick Farr-Jones with a legal background has also established himself as a rather successfull business man. From the amateur/Professional Transition period.

Slightly off topic but goes to show that some little cheating runt half backs can be successful in academia and business, and that you do not need to be a 100kg+ doofus to be successful at rugby.

There are probably proportionately less high profile rugby players who are studying law, medicine, engineering etc than in the olden days, but I suspect that the various engineering schools, med schools etc could still assemble a rather competent rugby XV should the need arise.

 

[stonecutter]

Lindommer: its a funnny thing - the number of boys who do what this boy did and ignore their parent's strongly held prejudices about rugby, in particular, seems to get less with each year. I don't think that's a reflection of increasing parental respect. I regret to say that I think its just borne of physical laziness - why play a sport as well as you possibly can by training etc. if you can do quadratic equations? [it was probably the quadratic equations that drove me to train harder].

There seems to be a theory that you cant play rugby at a high level and yet do "well" in life beyond rugby: as barbarian showed in a thread a little while ago - John Solomon and his ilk all seemed to get by playing very serious rugby (for no money) and getting medical qualifications and, in some cases, being pretty eminent in their fields: Paul Darvenizia, comes to mind and Brett Robinson though not practicing medicine is a more modern equivalent who prove that formal academic qualifications need not suffer just because you play rugby. i should say I chose medico's only because it seems to be widely accepted that you have to be reasonably intelligent to be one and there's not always (ever?) the lure of a huge financial reward pursuing medicine.

If i were in the business of employing staff, and i hope this isn't illegal, I would be at least as interested in what any candidate had done outside the library and the uni gates as I would be in their academic transcript. And every day that passes in which I deal with the one dimensional graduates of those universities convinces me of the value of extra curricular activity.

Dr Mark Loane and Michael Hawker have managed to eak out an existence in post rugby days also. These are the types of role model we should be putting up to the new generations rather than the twitter head lot who get dissapointed with a 750k wage packet for not being the best in the world. Kids need to understand you are only one injury away from the end of a promising career and that rugby is a nice way to earn a crust in your early years when youv'e proved you can sustain a level of performance deserving of your pay scale, but then you have to do something else for the next 30+ years. Maybe I'm just getting old and cynical but since professionalism kicked in the game has lost much of its grace.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Inside Shoulder, I am reminded of two Australians who have received the Rugby World Cup after their team has won Bill.

Dr David Kirk from the Darkness circa 87 was also a Rhodes Scholar IIRC, has gone on to a successful (ish) business career including Fairfax CEO. From the Amateur Rugby Days.

Nick Farr-Jones with a legal background has also established himself as a rather successfull business man. From the amateur/Professional Transition period.

Slightly off topic but goes to show that some little cheating runt half backs can be successful in academia and business, and that you do not need to be a 100kg+ doofus to be successful at rugby.

There are probably proportionately less high profile rugby players who are studying law, medicine, engineering etc than in the olden days, but I suspect that the various engineering schools, med schools etc could still assemble a rather competent rugby XV should the need arise.

Dr Kirk is now chairman of trustees at Sydney Grammar - so work that one out?
I did read once that Andy Haden thought Kirk was up himself because they were waiting on a plane in Suva and instead of getting on the sherbert (or whatever one drinks in Fiji) the good doctor was reading a book.

 

[Lindommer]

Dr Kirk is now chairman of trustees at Sydney Grammar - so work that one out?

There's a Kiwi in charge at College Street/Weigall? It wasn't difficult, IS.

 

[CTPE]

There are probably proportionately less high profile rugby players who are studying law, medicine, engineering etc than in the olden days, but I suspect that the various engineering schools, med schools etc could still assemble a rather competent rugby XV should the need arise.

I wonder how many of those 38 players to have pulled on the Wallabies jersey in 2012 are currently doing or have completed a Tertiary degree?

 

[wreckless]

No, he didnt make the First XV, but he did play on the wing for Grammar's Seconds. His parents knew bugger all about rowing and nothing about rugby (which they didn't understand and thought was a "brutal" game) and preferred he put all his spare time into study, but the lad played the sports nevertheless. He made friends at Grammar most of the other Asian boys didn't and now has those friends for life. His HSC results couldn't've been better.

What rugby is/should be all about - kudos to the lad!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

There's a Kiwi in charge at College Street/Weigall? It wasn't difficult, IS.

Similar results at Grammer as when there is a kiwi in charge of the Wobs?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

There's a Kiwi in charge at College Street/Weigall? It wasn't difficult, IS.

I didn't say he was in charge - my reading is that the headmaster gets what he wants, when he wants it.
Rugby is not on his list of things to do.

 

[Brian Westlake]

The Bye is cactus, as predicted. Supporters, Old Boys and Alumni of The Bye will be devastated.

Vale the Bye... Never beaten in its career, gave its all. Please take a moment as I know G Chewer and Newbie will be devestated.

 

[Brian Westlake]

I wonder how many of those 38 players to have pulled on the Wallabies jersey in 2012 are currently doing or have completed a Tertiary degree?

I think you will be surprised on how many are stusying ATM. Due to time restraints of ARU/S15/Provincial Rugby, a lot of the players will do only one subject each semester due to work loads. Proud of every one of them.
Closer to our end of the scale ( Schoolboys), I think that there will be quite a few high 90+ lads out of the recent Aus Schoolboys tour. I know that Tom Robertson is one right out of the box in the academic stakes. And if he doesn't get a good score, he just runs over the marker
Good luck to all those boys doing exams ATM...

 

[scaraby]

I wonder how many of those 38 players to have pulled on the Wallabies jersey in 2012 are currently doing or have completed a Tertiary degree?

JOC (James O'Connor) Must be almost finished at : http://www.mcohb.com.au/

 

[Quick Hands]

I didn't say he was in charge - my reading is that the headmaster gets what he wants, when he wants it.
Rugby is not on his list of things to do.

 

[Quick Hands]

The decline of Grammar rugby is not only a matter of great regret, but should be a matter of great embarrassment for the Headmaster and those charged with running that great school. While High might have the impediment of being part of the State system, Grammar have no such issues. At a time when all of the other schools in the AAGPS have strengthed their sports programmes (not just rugby), there seems to have been an almost complete inertia at Grammar (perhaps deliberately so). It begars belief that a school with ample resources, including facilities, could let this occur. Whilst it might be true that their demographic means that they won't go down to 16Hs or have a 10th XV, there is no doubt that they could field competitive 1sts, 2nds and A and B teams in the age groups if the rugby players that they already have were coached properly from 13s to opens. One hopes that when Dr Vallance retires that the School Council appoints someone who will not only maintain the great academic traditions of the school, but will also aim to restore its equally fine sporting traditions.

From the relatively small amount of Grammar rugby that I have seen over the years (mainly at age group level), I have never seen a Grammar team that didn't have a go and didn't contain some talented individuals. Sport and intelligence are not mutually exclusive, it seems a great pity that the people running Grammar thing that it is.

 

[George Smith]

Assistance please..
[assuming the majority of G&G are supporting a 2 round home & away format for 2013]

Hey LG and other Joey's alumni... I understand we need to place some OB pressure on Joeys to agree to the home and away season format for 2013. Joey's sticking point, I understand, is that 1st and 2nds are all sorted (common agreement amongst all schools) but 3rds with 9 teams participating will mean that the home team 3rds may be playing a team from a different school to that playing in the 1sts and 2nds.

I believe the current format with SGS, SHS, TAS not wanting to field teams in the 1sts Comp necessitates progressive thinking. No longer can we just play 1 school in all grades on any saturday. We have seen these past few years that on some saturdays up to 9 different schools play at a given venue.

My snout tells me that 2013 could look like:
1sts: SJC, TSC, TKS, NC, SIC, Shore
2nds: SJC, TSC, TKS, NC, SIC, Shore
3rds: SJC, TSC, TKS, NC, SIC, Shore + SGS, SHS, TAS

[TAS like SGS this year was considered a 'strong' rugby year group and cannot translate the school to playing 1sts or 2nds next year]

 

[random2]

Assistance please..
[assuming the majority of G&G are supporting a 2 round home & away format for 2013]

Hey LG and other Joey's alumni. I understand we need to place some OB pressure on Joeys to agree to the home and away season format for 2013. Joey's sticking point, I understand, is that 1st and 2nds are all sorted (common agreement amongst all schools) but 3rds with 9 teams participating will mean that the home team 3rds may be playing a team from a different school to that playing in the 1sts and 2nds.

I believe the current format with SGS, SHS, TAS not wanting to field teams in the 1sts Comp necessitates progressive thinking. No longer can we just play 1 school in all grades on any saturday. We have seen these past few years that on some saturdays up to 9 different schools play at a given venue.

My snout tells me that 2013 could look like:
1sts: SJC, TSC, TKS, NC, SIC, Shore
2nds: SJC, TSC, TKS, NC, SIC, Shore
3rds: SJC, TSC, TKS, NC, SIC, Shore + SGS, SHS, TAS

[TAS like SGS this year was considered a 'strong' rugby year group and cannot translate the school to playing 1sts or 2nds next year]

From what i have heard Joeys have agreed to the 10 round comp. Apparently they are still "concerned about some of the fixtures". Im not 100 percent sure what that means but my guess is that they will be asking to play games against SGS, SHS and TAS at home and probably on the round when the 1st play Newington, Scots and Shore at home as Joeys are the only school where the 1st and 2nd XV games are compulsory for all boys. It will be interesting to see how they figure out all the fixtures.

 

[Lee Grant]

From Schools Rugby Tribune:


SYDNEY, NSW (17/10/12) – The AAGPS rugby competition will undergo significant changes, effective 2013.

St Ignatius College Sportsmaster, Andrew Szabo confirmed that the 2013 season will have six schools contest the 1st and 2nd XV competitions over two rounds (10 games). This means that all schools will play each other twice (home and away).

There will be just a single round of trial matches, before the competition proper commences.

The 3rd XV competition will have all nine (AAGPS) member schools participate in a single round competition.

The schools who will participate in the 1st and 2nd XV competition are:

St Ignatius College (Riverview, Lane Cove)
St Joseph's College (Hunters Hill)
The King's School (Paramatta North)
Scots College (Belleview Hill)
Shore / Sydney Church of England Grammar School (North Sydney)
Newington College (Stanmore).

All the above schools will participate in the 3rd XV competition, along with the 1st XVs of The Armidale School, Sydney Grammar and Sydney Boys High.

The draw is still being finalised and should be published by the end of the current term.