Proposed Nations Championship

[kiap]

I with you gwerty, pretty keen on it (apart from I do perhaps give a damn about Georgia, Samoa etc etc).

Fair comment but what sort of keyboard are you using here, man?

The whole premise of the name is to just tick off the boxes left to right...

 

[RugbyReg]

I’d like to see how many games of rugby Samoa, Georgia, Canada etc are getting annually now v how many that get under this structure.

Even the two invitational teams means Australia for one will play more games against the likes of Fiji and Japan than they have previously.

 

[Dan54]

Yep I keep forgetting that it's qwerty not gwerty!! Hey I still struggle after all these years .OK??

 

[Dan54]

I’d like to see how many games of rugby Samoa, Georgia, Canada etc are getting annually now v how many that get under this structure.

Even the two invitational teams means Australia for one will play more games against the likes of Fiji and Japan than they have previously.

I see no rason that the likes of Gergia would get less games etc, and against tier 1 teams. They will still have European cup etc, and surely Georgia are good warm up games before 6Ns etc like now.

 

[Adam84]

I’d like to see how many games of rugby Samoa, Georgia, Canada etc are getting annually now v how many that get under this structure.

Even the two invitational teams means Australia for one will play more games against the likes of Fiji and Japan than they have previously.

There have been 11 test matches between those 3 teams and Tier 1 teams over the past 3 years.
Out of that Georgia beat both Wales and Italy.

Under this new tournament design, they’ll be lucky to play 1 x Tier 1 opponent every 2nd year. Yes it is a bonus that Fiji and Japan will potentially be getting more matches, although yet to be seen who the invitationals will be.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

A few interesting remarks.

It will be owned by SANZAAR and 6 Nations instead of World Rugby; how does the revenue sharing then work for the invitational teams?

Also the statement reads that the two competitions will “pave the way for promotion and relegation matches”, but offers no assurance of when that will happen.

It'll never happen.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I see no rason that the likes of Gergia would get less games etc, and against tier 1 teams. They will still have European cup etc, and surely Georgia are good warm up games before 6Ns etc like now.

During this competition the T1 Unions will exclusively play among themselves. The only opportunities for that to not be the case is during Lions Tours. So it could be the case of the likes of Georgia only getting games against T1 opposition once every 3 years. Which is less than now. And as above this is a team that beat Italy and Wales recently as well as if you've been keeping track of the U20s beat Argentina a couple of days ago. Went with South Africa days before that (a team favoured to push for the title) and only 6 weeks ago or so beat England U20s. A team that is definitely going to beat the Aus U20s.

I understand the need for considering the money side of the equation. Without the core 10 Unions it would have little value but I just don't understand the insistence on narrowing the field to a selected few when there's room to shore up the $ and provide more access to the likes of Georgia, the PIs, the likes of Chile and Uruguay plus a number of other European nations who have been putting a fair bit into developing their games in recent years. I mean to put it into perspective if not for one player falsifying documents Romania wouldn't be at the RWC this year it would have been Spain.

The only thing that could lessen this is if WR (World Rugby) secures commitments for the 10 Unions to run A squads in the competition that would occupy the 2nd Division space. Would still be a bit of a raw deal but at least there will be a level of engagement providing for most of these teams higher levels of competition than just a purely T2 2nd Div.

 

[zer0]

So. The punishing cricket track of playing the same old same old, again and again, year after year?

Fun.

The NZ XV better play some more interesting and varied (i.e., T2) teams.

 

[Adam84]

I see no rason that the likes of Gergia would get less games etc, and against tier 1 teams. They will still have European cup etc, and surely Georgia are good warm up games before 6Ns etc like now.

If you see no reason then I don’t think you completely understand what is been proposed?

The Regulation 9 test calendar windows are now 100% booked every 2nd year for Tier 1 teams to exclusively play against other Tier 1 nations. The only year where the test calendar isn’t completely booked versus Tier 1 Nations is in a B&I Lions and RWC year. Which offer limited opportunities anyway due to obvious reasons.

Georgia has played tier 1 teams 8 times in the past 3 years, going forward they’ll be lucky to play 2 games every 4 years.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

So. The punishing cricket track of playing the same old same old, again and again, year after year?

Fun.

The NZ XV better play some more interesting and varied (i.e., T2) teams.

I'd actually find something like what I've suggested pretty interesting. You could split it along the lines of the APAC concept and Europe/Africa. In the APAC you run Aus A, NZ XV, Argentina XV, Junior Japan, Fiji Warriors (assuming these are the two elevated to the WL) alongside Tonga, Samoa, the USA, Canada, Chile, Uruguay plus say the winner of the Asian Rugby Championship. In Europe/Africa you have a squads from the 6Ns plus South Africa joined by the top 4 from the REC and the next best team from Africa. Each running two pools of 6 for 5 games with the top two from each playing in a finals series during the November window. IF that series happens to be A squads then so be it. Point would be that they would provide more development opportunities for the 12 non WL nations by providing them with a better mix of games and opponents.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

If you see no reason then I don’t think you completely understand what is been proposed?

The Regularion 9 test window calendar windows are now 100% booked every 2nd year for Tier 1 teams to exclusively play against other Tier 1 nations. The only year where the test calendar isn’t completely booked versus Tier 1 Nations is in a B&I Lions and RWC year. Which offer limited opportunities anyway due to obvious reasons.

And in RWC the schedule is condensed. So for many T1 nations they'll opt not to play anymore games than necessary. Examples like Aus A playing Portugal will be more outliers than the norm. Which is why in my opinion WR (World Rugby) should insist as part of ratifying this concept that the WL nations have to run A squads that play in something similar to what I've suggested above. Sure it's no where near perfect or even satisfactory but it would be better than being completely shafted which seems on the cards.

 

[Adam84]

Interestingly, they mentioned there will be a final between the top two teams. Given that the ladder positions could be undecided until the very last weekend of spring tours, it means they will need to book in a stadium to play the match well in advance, this means selling the match to the highest bidder Super Bowl style at the end of the Spring Tour.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Interestingly, they mentioned there will be a final between the top two teams. Given that the ladder positions could be undecided until the very last weekend of spring tours, it means they will need to book in a stadium to play the match well in advance, this means selling the match to the highest bidder Super Bowl style at the end of the Spring Tour.

To a limited degree. It will follow the money and that is in the NH.

 

[RugbyReg]

There have been 11 test matches between those 3 teams and Tier 1 teams over the past 3 years.
Out of that Georgia beat both Wales and Italy.

Under this new tournament design, they’ll be lucky to play 1 x Tier 1 opponent every 2nd year. Yes it is a bonus that Fiji and Japan will potentially be getting more matches, although yet to be seen who the invitationals will be.

My question was more just the quantity of games being played.

As far as I can tell, last year USA played the following 5 tests:

Chile x 2
Kenya
Hong Kong
Portugal
and then a random game v the French Barbarians.

Doesn't this basically guarantee them games against the likes of Tonga, Portugal, Samoa, Romania, Spain, Namibia each year? Do we know the structure of that 2nd tier?

For the USA this seems a much better option.

Personally, my take is that its great for the Tier 1 teams, plus the 2 invitational teams. Then its bloody good for the mid to lower tier teams. It's just those on the cusp teams (such as Georgia perhaps) that could argue it's not terrific for. But they were a long way from getting into 6 Nations so this is their best chance of regularly playing with the big boys.

 

[Adam84]

To a limited degree. It will follow the money and that is in the NH.

Of course.. the highest bidder will be a European stadium, wouldn’t be surprised to see it marketed to the likes of Dubai/Qatar though, halfway between.

 

[Adam84]

My question was more just the quantity of games being played.

As far as I can tell, last year USA played the following 5 tests:

Chile x 2
Kenya
Hong Kong
Portugal
and then a random game v the French Barbarians.

Doesn't this basically guarantee them games against the likes of Tonga, Portugal, Samoa, Romania, Spain, Namibia each year? Do we know the structure of that 2nd tier?

For the USA this seems a much better option.

Personally, my take is that its great for the Tier 1 teams, plus the 2 invitational teams. Then its bloody good for the mid to lower tier teams. It's just those on the cusp teams (such as Georgia perhaps) that could argue it's not terrific for. But they were a long way from getting into 6 Nations so this is their best chance of regularly playing with the big boys.

Playing more test matches as a whole, and playing more test matches against higher quality test opposition shouldn’t be mutually exclusive concepts. WR (World Rugby) could have organised a better test match structure that offered both and didn’t create a haves and have nots.

I don’t think locking teams out of higher quality opposition is a bonus, especially the USA building towards them hosting the RWC in 2031.

Even something as simple as designating 1 weekend in the test window to play a Tier 1 vs Tier 2 crossover. It just means this new World League, wouldn’t haven been a complete round robin.

 

[Dan54]

If you see no reason then I don’t think you completely understand what is been proposed?

The Regulation 9 test calendar windows are now 100% booked every 2nd year for Tier 1 teams to exclusively play against other Tier 1 nations. The only year where the test calendar isn’t completely booked versus Tier 1 Nations is in a B&I Lions and RWC year. Which offer limited opportunities anyway due to obvious reasons.

Georgia has played tier 1 teams 8 times in the past 3 years, going forward they’ll be lucky to play 2 games every 4 years.

What I meant Adam is won't georgia still get games as lead up to comp? I not sure teams will be keen on going in cold. Though I understand point, but they don't really play top line ups from tier 1 now as a rule anyway? Just think if there is a tier 2 comp where they get to play a wider range of teams it will work anyway. I know first 2 years of comp they won't get promoted, but it only until 2030 anyway. Well at this stge, once again, I not one to run down a proposed tournament without seeing all details etc anyway, and see how it runs.

 

[Dan54]

To a limited degree. It will follow the money and that is in the NH.

And if the fianl is at end of year, really NH is best spot anyway. I mean probably the best stadiums are up that way anyway, and much as I dislike saying it, so is the population? Not sure where any sensible places would be down here anyway, though not real sure of SA temps etc at that time of year?

Besides won't it help make us all feel like we hard done by etc if we have no finals down here?? Nothing like having excuses etc ready.

 

[Adam84]

What I meant Adam is won't georgia still get games as lead up to comp? I not sure teams will be keen on going in cold. Though I understand point, but they don't really play top line ups from tier 1 now as a rule anyway? Just think if there is a tier 2 comp where they get to play a wider range of teams it will work anyway. I know first 2 years of comp they won't get promoted, but it only until 2030 anyway. Well at this stge, once again, I not one to run down a proposed tournament without seeing all details etc anyway, and see how it runs.

No, the test calendar is full during the regulation 9 test window in the years with the new World League.
Tier 2 nations, with players in European clubs aren't been released to play warmups outside of the Regulation 9 window.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

What I meant Adam is won't georgia still get games as lead up to comp? I not sure teams will be keen on going in cold. Though I understand point, but they don't really play top line ups from tier 1 now as a rule anyway? Just think if there is a tier 2 comp where they get to play a wider range of teams it will work anyway. I know first 2 years of comp they won't get promoted, but it only until 2030 anyway. Well at this stge, once again, I not one to run down a proposed tournament without seeing all details etc anyway, and see how it runs.

Next year and may be 2025 but beyond. Once it comes online that will become very limited to perhaps 1 year in a 4 year cycle. Which is worse than at present.

And from a growth potential it makes little sense. Let's look at Spain. As a Rugby nation it runs deeper in terms of players than Georgia and has hosted well attended internationals. They also have been producing the best quality age grade sides outside Georgia of the non 6Ns Unions. With more engagement they could move forward and provide a solid destination and return. But will now be cut out.