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RWC 2019 1/4 Final England vs Australia

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
Actually this comment is more the problem with Australian rugby than you think.
A lot of us didn't go to your posh schools nor wear a fucking tie. But we don't get the opportunities because of it. New Zealand on the other hand..

We do.

In League.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
hodgson at the force? grew into captaincy and was clearly supported by wessels. pocock also did some optional leadership training on his sabbatical and has done a good job standing in.



difference in nz is that they tale this stuff seriously, up to and including psychologists to focus on performance, and more importantly focus under pressure.



the u18s and u20s show that leadership and acheivement is there. i think weve lost sight of some of this because of the current crop of wobs and the habitual patterns of selection, behaviours and outcomes.


Absolutely and that is a key reason why I think RA have to bite the bullet and move on a few "senior" players like Beale, Genia and certainly AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (I know they are leaving anyway - but do not replace them with other players to take their "cultural place is my point) and not entertain any thoughts of bringing back them or others. With a $4M contract there is no chance at all that Hooper will be moved on, and I think he could improve greatly if he was at risk, but he certainly is now tainted IMO from his actions as Captain on the field and off (Beale matter). The culture must change, not just the coach (which is an absolute must).
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
Absolutely and that is a key reason why I think RA have to bite the bullet and move on a few "senior" players like Beale, Genia and certainly AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (I know they are leaving anyway - but do not replace them with other players to take their "cultural place is my point) and not entertain any thoughts of bringing back them or others. With a $4M contract there is no chance at all that Hooper will be moved on, and I think he could improve greatly if he was at risk, but he certainly is now tainted IMO from his actions as Captain on the field and off (Beale matter). The culture must change, not just the coach (which is an absolute must).
I’ll give you 2-1 that the next coach doesn’t select kurtley in his 23.
 

A mutterer

Chilla Wilson (44)
Absolutely and that is a key reason why I think RA have to bite the bullet and move on a few "senior" players like Beale, Genia and certainly AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (I know they are leaving anyway - but do not replace them with other players to take their "cultural place is my point) and not entertain any thoughts of bringing back them or others. With a $4M contract there is no chance at all that Hooper will be moved on, and I think he could improve greatly if he was at risk, but he certainly is now tainted IMO from his actions as Captain on the field and off (Beale matter). The culture must change, not just the coach (which is an absolute must).

i can see your point but i think that since the call has been made, better to double down and provide the right backing and resources to get him to the level we need him to be.

culture is a product of training after all.
 

Joe King

Dave Cowper (27)
I think the focus on these relatively small areas of the game like the selection of Pooper, or Beale V DHP or in your words 'the silver bullet' is because we really aren't that far away from being a quality side.

I disagree that it's collectively a much more complex issue with poor grassroots etc. I think we are only 5% worse then the opposition and half of it is poor strategy (coaching).

For example: We have players that have the ability to exit our 22 - White, Hodge both have huge boots.

We just need to refine a few key area's and we are good.


Unfortunately, I think this is what management will continue to believe.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
What I think we've seen, from the obsession with ' running rugby' to giving guys like like Folau everything in the till, is the immensely misguided notion that those things best place us to compete for the 'entertainment dollar' with rugby league a d AFL etc.



My long held position is that there's a natural bracket for rugby's popularity. It will never be as popular as cricket, for instance. What we saw in the 90s was that rugby was still a niche sport but people around the Water cooler knew that the wallabies were good. They didn't moan when we won a test only scoring one try. People used to appreciate smart tactical kicking when it helped us win. The best thing we can do for rugby is start performing well at RUGBY, not trying to turn it into the NBA all star game or Cirque Du Soleil or rugby league or whatever.



Any short term dopamine hit we got from Folau, in the form of people from league or AFL showing an interest in our sport, was promptly wasted through a long period of neglect of actually performing well in our sport.



Having our teams perform well (I.e results) will push the popularity of rugby to the top it's natural bracket. Trying to turn rugby into something else will do the opposite.



The next wallaby coach needs to have simple kpi. Win. Fuck running rugby. Fuck 'ball in hand'. Fuck our 'style. Go out there and bloody win.


How about have a look at Japan. Seriously. Play good rugby. Execute at speed and play all aspects of the game including kicking. The Wallabies for all their vaunted "Running Rugby" haven't put on a try like Japan has in multiple games just this year, against top opposition as Japan has for years. The ensemble running and link play, with tactical kicking and set piece play has proved the value of playing RUGBY. The Wallabies are not a Rugby team. They are completely deficient in key aspects of play. Indeed I'd say Georgia were a more rounded team and if they'd had the time together that the Wallabies had, and the fitness programs they could beat the Wallabies.

Forget setting winning as the be all and end all. How about concentrate on playing well and executing the skills and with the players available the winning will take care of itself, and in that consideration must be given to properly preparing the team, not only in fitness etc, but possibly by radical ideas such as analysing the opposition you are playing to design a plan to beat them.
 

footy1>31

Charlie Fox (21)
The worst thing that happened in 2019 from a holistic standpoint was the win in Perth. So many were deluded beating a 14 men All Blacks team that certain combinations were up to it, when unfortunately it's been proven they weren't. 9/10 and Kerevi/13 haven't built any consistency. Only bringing two halfbacks was a failure; Phipps as a clubman, could have been a genuine option with his skillset. Now it isn't trolling, but if say Foley and Phipps/Genia were given the time in the middle to develop combinations with Kerevi/13 and the forwards we would have been better off. CLL has never proved up to it as test player. I was shocked by the lack of Tevita Kurindrani's involvement, as an incumbent, proven test centre.

Cheika's brillance worked at the very start of his Australian tenure; Tahs 14, World Cup 15. I must admit I looked to far ahead; putting blind faith in him, justifying that everything would turn out ok at this World Cup, because that what mattered. Oh how misguided that was.

It's exciting to consider the crop coming through; MK is electric, Jordie is going to play 100 + tests, Cheiks faith in Tolu paid off big time, Rodda's a future captain, and Hooper's existence means the Wallabies have a indestructible world class 7 for his next 75 tests. It's a shame there's no more Wallabies footy for the year, onwards and upwards!
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
i can see your point but i think that since the call has been made, better to double down and provide the right backing and resources to get him to the level we need him to be.



culture is a product of training after all.


Its a moot point as you say, I just have serious doubts that he has the ability /desire to improve or even accept tat he has to. Maybe somebody should send him the comment and he can use it as motivation to in the future say I told you so and I'd be very please with that outcome. However experience tells me that absolute security rarely leads to the outcome improvements we are talking about and when talking about the "player leader" of the whole show its makes it hard to change the culture.

Another point that I've made in the past is that the rotten culture is bred at the very top, it started with JON and continued from there and now we have the banker Clyne at the very top. It is not an accident that the outcomes where ever an executive of our Big 4 has gone over the last decade the result have turned to shit and no responsibility for any real outcome is accepted and the culture is one of manipulation, greed, arrogance and cover ups. The board and executive must also go and they should have no input into the replacement.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
What I think we've seen, from the obsession with ' running rugby' to giving guys like like Folau everything in the till, is the immensely misguided notion that those things best place us to compete for the 'entertainment dollar' with rugby league a d AFL etc.

My long held position is that there's a natural bracket for rugby's popularity. It will never be as popular as cricket, for instance. What we saw in the 90s was that rugby was still a niche sport but people around the Water cooler knew that the wallabies were good. They didn't moan when we won a test only scoring one try. People used to appreciate smart tactical kicking when it helped us win. The best thing we can do for rugby is start performing well at RUGBY, not trying to turn it into the NBA all star game or Cirque Du Soleil or rugby league or whatever.

Any short term dopamine hit we got from Folau, in the form of people from league or AFL showing an interest in our sport, was promptly wasted through a long period of neglect of actually performing well in our sport.

Having our teams perform well (I.e results) will push the popularity of rugby to the top it's natural bracket. Trying to turn rugby into something else will do the opposite.

The next wallaby coach needs to have simple kpi. Win. Fuck running rugby. Fuck 'ball in hand'. Fuck our 'style. Go out there and bloody win.


Agree. The natural skill-set of Australian will naturally lead to running rugby anyway - there is no need to drill that mentality into the team and try and run the ball from our own 22.

Simply play to the strengths of our players, and not be afraid to kick when you have to kick.

Red 2011, they kieked more then any other super XV team and won the comp. AB the same at international level. We don't care about this stupid "running rugby" mentality. You play what's in front of you and you kick the bloody ball when you need too.

Even Jake White at the Brumbies had some damn exciting rugby despite a couple of "boring" games - more importantly they were winning.
 

Strewthcobber

Andrew Slack (58)
It's not the board, it's not the CeO, it's not the coach.

The stark uncomfortable truth for all of us is it's the players.
 

molman

Jim Lenehan (48)
True - clearly part of the game-plan for some stupid reason this game. All of Beale, Lilo and Genia doing stupid chip kicks in our 22 - none worked.

I think I can see the though around this. With the rush defence there is that space that can open up behind. Doing it in your 22 is pretty high risk though and we saw the results of that.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
It's not the board, it's not the CeO, it's not the coach.

The stark uncomfortable truth for all of us is it's the players.

Isn’t that what the cynics and doubters said of Japan 5-7 years ago? But, today, 2019, is not this team a shining example of the unarguable power of sustained rugby coaching quality in depth and, related, player skills development in depth. And there are no ‘outstanding’ players in the Japan team, rather there are many very competent players that have the humility and openness and personal maturity to allow themselves to be assisted by good specialist support coaches and even better head coaches.
 

Dismal Pillock

David Codey (61)
Poor Skeeny. His confidence probably in pieces after spending the entire week reading pisstakes of his job performance online as well as, in all likelihood, getting told by his bosses to "please, could you just fucking sit there and shut up until the referee calls on you instead of marching into the fray every 30 seconds to tell Angus about your latest footage of a dog sucking itself off at the motherfucking seaside?"

He bit his tongue until the 64th minute. The longest he's ever been quiet in his entire life. When he finally did pluck up the gumption to pipe up, did I detect a certain baleful tone to his voice? As if to say "look, I am just trying to alert the referee to potential foul play from a ruck 80 years ago in a lacrosse game but I've been told to please just bloody shut up for 30 seconds please could you just fucking do that."
 

Lorenzo

Colin Windon (37)
How about have a look at Japan. Seriously. Play good rugby. Execute at speed and play all aspects of the game including kicking. The Wallabies for all their vaunted "Running Rugby" haven't put on a try like Japan has in multiple games just this year, against top opposition as Japan has for years. The ensemble running and link play, with tactical kicking and set piece play has proved the value of playing RUGBY. The Wallabies are not a Rugby team. They are completely deficient in key aspects of play. Indeed I'd say Georgia were a more rounded team and if they'd had the time together that the Wallabies had, and the fitness programs they could beat the Wallabies.

Forget setting winning as the be all and end all. How about concentrate on playing well and executing the skills and with the players available the winning will take care of itself, and in that consideration must be given to properly preparing the team, not only in fitness etc, but possibly by radical ideas such as analysing the opposition you are playing to design a plan to beat them.

I agree with all of that. What I mean is that we have to ask ourselves "how do we perform well" rather than "how do we play sexy rugby and hopefully perform well whilst doing it".

Ultimately consistent wins will bring the punters back. Consistent plucky losses (or unplucky losses, like tonight) will not.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Absolutely and that is a key reason why I think RA have to bite the bullet and move on a few "senior" players like Beale, Genia and certainly AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) (I know they are leaving anyway - but do not replace them with other players to take their "cultural place is my point) and not entertain any thoughts of bringing back them or others. With a $4M contract there is no chance at all that Hooper will be moved on, and I think he could improve greatly if he was at risk, but he certainly is now tainted IMO from his actions as Captain on the field and off (Beale matter). The culture must change, not just the coach (which is an absolute must).
I couldn't MEH harder. Hooper was good if not great and even earnt more turnovers than the much hailed Pocock.
 

Lorenzo

Colin Windon (37)
It's an awful copout to blame the playing stock. Just absurd. We have always had an inferior supply (depthwise) of playing stock to most of the other top tier sides yet we were at least routinely in the hunt until at least the end of 2013. The results speak for themselves. The playing stock hasn't rapidly deteriorated in the last 5 or 10 years. Yes, there's clearly a lack of focus on some of the things that matter at both junior and senior levels, but the national side has been grossly underperforming and frankly, the people the blame are those with direct control over those results.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Isn’t that what the cynics and doubters said of Japan 5-7 years ago? But, today, 2019, is not this team a shining example of the unarguable power of sustained rugby coaching quality in depth and, related, player skills development in depth. And there are no ‘outstanding’ players in the Japan team, rather there are many very competent players that have the humility and openness and personal maturity to allow themselves to be assisted by good specialist support coaches and even better head coaches.
100%. How could anyone watch that game and conclude it was the players fault? Just deficient tactics... Play out of the 22? Jesus. One out rugby when in their 22 against the best defence in world rugby? Fucken hell mate.

That said, we are in dire straights when it comes to the halves. Easily the worst halves of the last 8.
 

Lorenzo

Colin Windon (37)

MC presser^.

Answer to the first question says it all. Thinks that Australians want them to play their run at all costs style.

Thank God this clueless moron is finished. What a waste of 4 years.
 
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