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RWC 2019 1/4 Final England vs Australia

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Did anyone else notice Hodge taking kick-offs last night? Have we been doing that at the RWC, or was this a first?

He was pretty decent, too.


Was a first I think. Lilo was pretty average as a restart kicker so probably made sense. Kicking right down the middle an interesting strategy too....
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Has any team in history ever given up so many game changing turnover tries at critical times?

We did it in this game, we did it against Wales, we did it against Fiji.

Mo'unga did it to us in Bled game 2.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Hodge is slow to the kick but kicks big. Pushed in deep in our quarter with a thriving rush we did not have the ability to create the space needed for Hodge to be able to kick. And going 60m is fine if you don't have to start 20m back, otherwise same result as any other kicker.


Why don't we do what every other team does, add a couple players to the back of the ruck, roll the ball back for the halfback to clear it.

White has a big boot too, and Genia not too bad either that would have been very effective.
 

molman

Ken Catchpole (46)
You know, rewatching some of it, we were really in it till around the 50min mark. When we came back 16-17 I really don't think the result was a given.

We also actually opened really well. That sequence at the beginning was some of the better play from the Wallabies. I think England have really learn't the NZ knack of giving away cynical fouls and 3 points rather than a try.

Our exits and kickoff returns are where we really lost this game. We just put ourselves under so much unecessary pressure. It just didn't make sense as a tactic.
 

barbarian

Phil Kearns (64)
Staff member
Was a first I think. Lilo was pretty average as a restart kicker so probably made sense. Kicking right down the middle an interesting strategy too..


That's dangerously close to a smart tactical decision. Very un-Australian.
 

molman

Ken Catchpole (46)
Has any team in history ever given up so many game changing turnover tries at critical times?

We did it in this game, we did it against Wales, we did it against Fiji.

Mo'unga did it to us in Bled game 2.

I suspect it's a combination of some of our combinations not working as they should, just not enough time together for some of the plays to be a fluid as they need to, but also of the rush defences having the opposition up in those spaces such that you have to be so precise and accurate. We also tend to have some players who really signal intent, like in that Wales game.

We also have some players who are just not heads up enough to exit a play. They'll follow through almost on script where as if you watch say the NZ v SA opening game, you can see the Kiwi's adjust to what is around them, holding the pass when needed.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Isn’t that what the cynics and doubters said of Japan 5-7 years ago? But, today, 2019, is not this team a shining example of the unarguable power of sustained rugby coaching quality in depth and, related, player skills development in depth. And there are no ‘outstanding’ players in the Japan team, rather there are many very competent players that have the humility and openness and personal maturity to allow themselves to be assisted by good specialist support coaches and even better head coaches.

I think the England side is also an example of what good coaching can achieve. They were quite poor under Lancaster at and before the 2015 RWC. Since then, with virtually the same roster, under Eddie they've risen to No 1 in world rankings (at one time), a record 17 wins on the trot, and have now put the Wallabies to the sword - the same team and coach who bundled them out of the Cup 4 years ago.

We have every right to expect that we'll see a similar improvement in performance as soon as Cheika moves on.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
I haven't watched a replay so my memory is a little fuzzy - didn't Hodge make a tackle on the left sideline and run across field to his right wing position only for a try to be scored on his outside? No phases in between to the best of my knowledge.
Reminded me of Grey's chess pieces strategy for defence.
 

Bobas

Darby Loudon (17)
I haven't watched a replay so my memory is a little fuzzy - didn't Hodge make a tackle on the left sideline and run across field to his right wing position only for a try to be scored on his outside? No phases in between to the best of my knowledge.
Reminded me of Grey's chess pieces strategy for defence.
he starts from behind the lineout on the right wing, to make a tackle one phase later on the left wing then has to drift back across behind two phases later to be overlapped on the right wing again.
 

molman

Ken Catchpole (46)
I think the England side is also an example of what good coaching can achieve. They were quite poor under Lancaster at and before the 2015 RWC. Since then, with virtually the same roster, under Eddie they've risen to No 1 in world rankings (at one time), a record 17 wins on the trot, and have now put the Wallabies to the sword - the same team and coach who bundled them out of the Cup 4 years ago.

We have every right to expect that we'll see a similar improvement in performance as soon as Cheika moves on.

I don't think I would call it virtually the same roster for England. Also, whilst I don't disagree that Eddie has done a solid job on the coaching front, don't forget that with regards to England, the coaching of the players is as much a reflection of the coaching at their club level (who they spend so much more time with). There is a strong core of players from teams like Saracens in the England squad who are very well coached at club level and have achieved great success not only in their domestic comp but also in the European Champions Cup.

Now reflect on how the Australian players have been going in their domestic comp (ie. Super Rugby) over the last couple of years. I think Cheika's results are a fair reflection of how our Super teams have also been performing.

Japan I think is a lot different. I do give a lot of credit to Jamie Joseph and his team as they systematically planned all aspects of their players development leading into this comp through essentially have complete control and access to their players at all times and using the Super comp as almost a testing/training ground for some of their squad to pop in and out of.
 

Bobas

Darby Loudon (17)
I don't think I would call it virtually the same roster for England. Also, whilst I don't disagree that Eddie has done a solid job on the coaching front, don't forget that with regards to England, the coaching of the players is as much a reflection of the coaching at their club level (who they spend so much more time with). There is a strong core of players from teams like Saracens in the England squad who are very well coached at club level and have achieved great success not only in their domestic comp but also in the European Champions Cup.

Now reflect on how the Australian players have been going in their domestic comp (ie. Super Rugby) over the last couple of years. I think Cheika's results are a fair reflection of how our Super teams have also been performing.

Japan I think is a lot different. I do give a lot of credit to Jamie Joseph and his team as they systematically planned all aspects of their players development leading into this comp through essentially have complete control and access to their players at all times and using the Super comp as almost a testing/training ground for some of their squad to pop in and out of.
Yeah and his 60% 2019 World Cup win ratio was 10% better than his career average of 50%, so if these trends continue we should see MC with a 100% win ratio for the 2023 rwc. Provided he continues to select players out of form and do no video analysis of opposition.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
I think the England side is also an example of what good coaching can achieve. They were quite poor under Lancaster at and before the 2015 RWC. Since then, with virtually the same roster, under Eddie they've risen to No 1 in world rankings (at one time), a record 17 wins on the trot, and have now put the Wallabies to the sword - the same team and coach who bundled them out of the Cup 4 years ago.

We have every right to expect that we'll see a similar improvement in performance as soon as Cheika moves on.

There'll be a bounce, there nearly always is. And we can hardly get worse. I hope. :(
If we want to see a sustained improvement, a LOT more needs to happen besides getting a new coach. Sure, we can look at the U-20s and Schoolboys beating NZ this year, but looking closer at what is happening in the de facto development pathways at school and junior level, there is a looming problem. Club rugby is enjoying good following, but the next tier is a bit lost.
England have a depth of resources (financial and human) that we just don't. We need therefore to be smarter, not just at the Wallabies level but all the way down. The current RA board probably won't fix this. They're as much a disaster as Cheika. But the whole pathway development, mainly in coaching structures (S&C, skills, tactics, kicking, leadership), has to evolve.
Historically, a winning Wallaby team can initiate some top down interest. I hope the next coach gets this bit right. I hope the admin gets the rest right.
 

Derpus

Jason Little (69)
Has any team in history ever given up so many game changing turnover tries at critical times?

We did it in this game, we did it against Wales, we did it against Fiji.

Mo'unga did it to us in Bled game 2.
It's just this whole 'ball in hand' idea. Every other team kicks to relieve pressure - whereas we don't even have a kicker.
 

cyclopath

George Smith (75)
Staff member
It's just this whole 'ball in hand' idea. Every other team kicks to relieve pressure - whereas we don't even have a kicker.

We did. 3 of them at least. It's just that:-
a) The habit of kicking has been degraded by this idiotic mentality that we have always won through "running rugby"
b) When the habit is not ingrained, the execution fails under any pressure
c) The rest of the team don't seem to get the whole kick-chase or protective set-up for the kicker dynamic, because, see a)

If players like Foley, Leali'ifano, Beale, Hodge, To'omua etc were all more practised in a game at kicking more often, they would all be far better. A skill only ever practised unopposed on the training field is like kabuki in rugby gear.
 

Up the Guts

Steve Williams (59)
Geez, 46 pages of dissection. I don't know where everyone is getting the strength for it. Time for another 'rebuilding period', not that we built anything in the last 4 years. At least, there are some bright prospects coming through (looking at you Petaia).

Vale Poey, Willy G et al, shame we couldn't send you off in better fashion.

Oh well, at least we won the Ashes, go All Blacks.
 

Derpus

Jason Little (69)
Geez, 46 pages of dissection. I don't know where everyone is getting the strength for it. Time for another 'rebuilding period', not that we built anything in the last 4 years. At least, there are some bright prospects coming through (looking at you Petaia).

Vale Poey, Willy G et al, shame we couldn't send you off in better fashion.

Oh well, at least we won the Ashes, go All Blacks.
I was pretty content with the loss having thoroughly managed my own expectations beforehand.
 

formerflanker

Ken Catchpole (46)
he starts from behind the lineout on the right wing, to make a tackle one phase later on the left wing then has to drift back across behind two phases later to be overlapped on the right wing again.

Thanks. The last thing I need is to watch the drama unfold again in order to check on my fuzzy memory.
Having a wing cover both sidelines seems a bit extreme. I assumed the back 3 worked as a team to cover the whole field.
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
I don't think I would call it virtually the same roster for England. Also, whilst I don't disagree that Eddie has done a solid job on the coaching front, don't forget that with regards to England, the coaching of the players is as much a reflection of the coaching at their club level (who they spend so much more time with). There is a strong core of players from teams like Saracens in the England squad who are very well coached at club level and have achieved great success not only in their domestic comp but also in the European Champions Cup.

Now reflect on how the Australian players have been going in their domestic comp (ie. Super Rugby) over the last couple of years. I think Cheika's results are a fair reflection of how our Super teams have also been performing.

Japan I think is a lot different. I do give a lot of credit to Jamie Joseph and his team as they systematically planned all aspects of their players development leading into this comp through essentially have complete control and access to their players at all times and using the Super comp as almost a testing/training ground for some of their squad to pop in and out of.

Can't agree. The coaching at the Brumbies since the middle of 2018 has been as good as, and better than most of, any of the Super coaches from SA and NZ. Witness their excellent form at the end of 2018 and during the whole of this year. Finished third on their merit this year and was the only Aus conference team to be consistently competitive with the best. And how did Cheika treat the players who had excelled during the year. Ignored Pete Samu and Rob Valetini almost completely, had Tom Banks and Joe Powell in the squad but under utilised them all year, played Folau Fainga'a and Tevita Kuridrani during the mid-year tests but ignored them during the RWC, picked a brace of slow lumbering players as wingers and ignored the claims of real wingers.

I am not saying he had a pro-Tahs bias as there were few Tahs also in the final selections, though a couple too many in AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) and Beale, but he really did seem to favour quite a few Rebels players at the expense of some better performers from other teams. Had he selected more in accordance with "how the super teams have also been performing" he would have had a different looking side turning out for the Wallabies. His results are in no way fair to the way the Brumbies players, for example, have performed over the past 18 months.
 
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