School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Rothschild]

TSS is marketed as a sporting school and rests on the laurels of it's outstanding sporting success - so I understand scholarships are an essential piece to the puzzle. It is just unusual that the school is such a consistently poor academic force and it doesn't seem to be an issue with the philosophy of the institution. I believe it was 2006 when TSS was the most expensive school in the state and the year 12 marks were in the bottom 5 percentile.

Thats the very last word I have on the topic

2010 = 114 students
12 boys with OP#1 (10.5%)
37% = OP 1-7
53% with OP 10 or better

if that's one of the worst around we have a pretty good educational system then.
Yes , I agree there have been years (2005 or 6 in particular) when TSS has not had good results but they are no where near what you could term 'cocnsitently poor' in academic achievement. Singling out one year is not indicitive nor is my highlighting this year's results an indication of the school as a whole.
I had a son in that 2005 year and overall it was just not a bright year. Gees we knew that at grade 8 stage. There are good and there are bad years and to do any comparison results must be read in relation to an overall picture and not base any comment on any one particular year's results.

 

[Lee Grant]

It's approaching that time of year. Just making this warning current so that folks don't start a new thread on the subject unaware that a lot of points have already been covered.

As always using this thread should keep the scholarship virus out of other posts on schools rugby.

Posts that contain references to scholarships or recruitment by schools in any other thread will be deleted in their entirety; so please refrain from embedding a sneaky editorial into an otherwise righteous post because a lot of good stuff will be wasted.

Yes, we realise this is a bit draconian but have opted to follow this path. As usual: correct forum behaviour is both expected and demanded.

Why bother to have any thread to discuss scholarships etc? To act as a safety valve and because it seemed to work last year.

 

[TheTruth]

2010 = 114 students
12 boys with OP#1 (10.5%)
37% = OP 1-7
53% with OP 10 or better

if that's one of the worst around we have a pretty good educational system then.
Yes , I agree there have been years (2005 or 6 in particular) when TSS has not had good results but they are no where near what you could term 'cocnsitently poor' in academic achievement. Singling out one year is not indicitive nor is my highlighting this year's results an indication of the school as a whole.
I had a son in that 2005 year and overall it was just not a bright year. Gees we knew that at grade 8 stage. There are good and there are bad years and to do any comparison results must be read in relation to an overall picture and not base any comment on any one particular year's results.

Mate, my bloke got a rugby scholarship in year 3 at TSS. Simply because they were looking at him for the First XV. At the end of day 1 the kid told me he was the biggest boy in the grade and asked why there were not some similar sized boys. I told him it was probably because he was 18

 

[jakub]

Yea i hear that the u15a's and u16a's this year for joeys are really good

 

[BGS Old Boy]

Mate, my bloke got a rugby scholarship in year 3 at TSS. Simply because they were looking at him for the First XV. At the end of day 1 the kid told me he was the biggest boy in the grade and asked why there were not some similar sized boys. I told him it was probably because he was 18

Disagree. No School would give out a rugby scholarship to a Yr 3 student? It is impossible to determine how they will develop unless you use East German methods of growth hormones. Don't waste time with such stuff?

 

[Lindommer]

Day 1 in Year 3 aged 18? You must've missed the satire and humour classes at BGS.

 

[Lee Grant]

Just a reminder, with the trials already in progress, that the rules of the forum have to be observed.

Even though this is a scholarship thread, which raises passions in some, forum members still have to obey protocols just as they have to in other things of their lives.

For those who like to push the envelope too far because that is their nature or because they want to let off steam, or even those who are genuinely surprised when their posts are zapped: I recommend that they moderate their posts, or if they feel that these rules are too wanky, that they use a different rugby forum whose rules are less strict.

There are plenty of them out there.

Thank you.

 

[CanadianRugby]

Just like to say I'm totally fascinated with this topic. I don't even know where the hell these schools are or what happens at them, but I'm really enjoying this. Its like listening to people argue in code. A bit confused though. People are upset (and apparently everyone is upset) because scholarships are being handed out to talented athletes? I live in an area where there are very few private schools and no one hands out scholarships for anything that I know of. So what are the issues everyone has?

Would love it if someone could answers without name calling, though sometimes the name calling is fun.

 

[baldingwingforward]

So what are the issues everyone has?

Would love it if someone could answer without name calling, though sometimes the name calling is fun.

Hi Canadian Rugby

There is a bit of a split on the issues depending on which part of the country you are in. In Queensland Scholarships are openly allowed and schools can get in whomever they want to play for them. The two main issues in QLd are that the scholarships have basically ruined the competition - i.e. if you don't get scholarship players in you are virtually zero chance of winning a game let alone the competition. Also what is tending to creep in is boying finishing their final year of school and then getting a scholarship to go to another school purely to play 1st XV. This is school boy rugby after all with the emphasis being SCHOOL - i.e. rugby is just one of the things that happens at those schools but not the be all and end all.

In NSW and Sydney in particular the rules are different. It is explicitly agreed amongst the different schools and associations that no school is allowed to give out sportiong scholarships. The problem is that several schools in particular recruit boys heavily but no one does anything about it even though it is blatantly obvious that it is happening!!

The main offenders are Kings, Newington and Scots in the GPS, St Augustines in the ISA and to a lesser degree Knox and Trinity in the CAS. People will jump up and down and say wheres your proof etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that a boy who was previously at a Government High school and suddenly decides to change to an exclusive private school in Yr 10 or 11 - where the fees maybe as high as $25000 a year (closer to $40k for boarding) is getting some assistance. It gets called all sorts of things to cover it up - hardship bursary, music scholarship, allrounder bursary blah blah blah. Basically that is sugar coating the fact that it is a sporting bursary. Kings and Scots in particular openly admit that their waiting lists are at their biggest when the school has been doing well at sport (so Scots are still waiting for that to happen - so they use the success as a marketing tool.

If it was all out in the Open it would be much fairer - unfortunately at the moment it still goes on but no one has the balls to say anything or do anything about it!

Hope that answers a few of your questions...?

 

[lincoln]

baldingwingforward - agree with almost all of what you say but have two observations:
1. I have played against Knox and then been close to their parent group (who would know very well if their son had been replaced by a "scholar") and I am not aware they are involved in this - many deserved Knox swimming teams have gone down to first Waverly and then Trinity for the best part of the last 25 years.
2. Scots are lifting their game - the current headmaster has targetted rowing as a sport that boosts the profile of the "amateur sportsman" and the school. Their results today justify that approach.

 

[baldingwingforward]

baldingwingforward - agree with almost all of what you say but have two observations:
1. I have played against Knox and then been close to their parent group (who would know very well if their son had been replaced by a "scholar") and I am not aware they are involved in this .

Lincoln i am afraid to say that Knox do do it. 2 players in particular whom i have actually coached were approached at a tournament a couple of years ago and asked if they would like to go to Knox...

I have to agree with you about the swimmers at Waverley and Trinity. In fact tbh - the recruiting is far worse in other sports but because Rugby is the one with the biggest following and profile that is the one you hear about the most.

Newington has half of the Australian basketball squad atm - either they have an amazing programme (no) or its a huge coincidence that all of those great players have decided to go there at the same time. Scots poached the best player from their neighbours down the hill at Cranbrook and put him on a scholarship, and Sydney High... well they just made it a little easier academically for basketballers to get in to the school as they don't have the big fees.

Waverley have toned down their agressive approach a little in the past few years but that was only because of a new headmaster who didbn't agree with the imports. I have mates who work there who tell stories from a few years back of gun kids coming into the school the week before the CAS swimming carnival - strange coincidence that!

At least the GPS have implemented a new rule to try and stop the shameless mid season recruiting by some schools. As of this year each school had to submit a complete register of ALL students as of day 1 term 1. If a new boy comes to the school mid way through the year the school has to apply for special permission for him to be eligible to take part in GPS competitions. If the circumstance appear dodgy permission can be denied. Interestingly when the rule was implemented, the only school who made a fuss was Kings! Last year they poached a very good Athlete from Knox... just before GPS athletics... If that were to happen now the boy wouldn't be allowed to run until the following year. It won't stop schools but at least it demonstrates to the less scrupulous schools that the other schools are aware of their cheating ways!


Interestingly at the U16s Rugby champs last year there were only 3 boys in the NSW Schools side who didn't come from a Sydney private school. Totally coincidently one of those players has "decided" to do his Year 11 and 12 at Kings after the tournament. Not mentioning any names but he plays on the wing... Amazing how that coincidence seems to happen every year...

 

[lincoln]

Thanks BWF - very interesting (and sad) that Knox is on the slippery slope.

 

[Thismybrotha]

At least the GPS have implemented a new rule to try and stop the shameless mid season recruiting by some schools. As of this year each school had to submit a complete register of ALL students as of day 1 term 1. If a new boy comes to the school mid way through the year the school has to apply for special permission for him to be eligible to take part in GPS competitions. If the circumstance appear dodgy permission can be denied. Interestingly when the rule was implemented, the only school who made a fuss was Kings! Last year they poached a very good Athlete from Knox... just before GPS athletics... If that were to happen now the boy wouldn't be allowed to run until the following year. It won't stop schools but at least it demonstrates to the less scrupulous schools that the other schools are aware of their cheating ways!

isnt this 'athlete' also good at rugby too?

 

[T.Rugby]

isnt this 'athlete' also good at rugby too?

Nick Heath?

 

[CTPE]

Understand that a number of the 2010 NSW U15 Country squad are playing for Joeys U16 in 2011?

 

[connor95]

have any teams got new players this season?

 

[CanadianRugby]

So mostly what I´m hearing is that people don´t like these scholarships because it means other schools just can´t compete. Why not? In the US at the university level sports scholarships are given out by everyone at the highest level. But every school of a certain size offers these scholarships so the competition is to compete to get the best players to come to your school. Obviously there are problems with this system, but mostly what I´ve seen on this thread is people dismissing schools because they offer scholarships for talented athletes. What exactly bothers people so much about this practice?


Btw, I´m totally against the NCAA system in the US as it is, but I´m more curious about the Australian practices.

Also, is there a similar system in England, SA or NZ?

 

[QuadeCooperFan]

i guess its just not in the spirit of 'true competition' if that makes sense...

 

[The Chosen]

Lincoln i am afraid to say that Knox do do it. 2 players in particular whom i have actually coached were approached at a tournament a couple of years ago and asked if they would like to go to Knox...

I have to agree with you about the swimmers at Waverley and Trinity. In fact tbh - the recruiting is far worse in other sports but because Rugby is the one with the biggest following and profile that is the one you hear about the most.

Newington has half of the Australian basketball squad atm - either they have an amazing programme (no) or its a huge coincidence that all of those great players have decided to go there at the same time. Scots poached the best player from their neighbours down the hill at Cranbrook and put him on a scholarship, and Sydney High... well they just made it a little easier academically for basketballers to get in to the school as they don't have the big fees.

Waverley have toned down their agressive approach a little in the past few years but that was only because of a new headmaster who didbn't agree with the imports. I have mates who work there who tell stories from a few years back of gun kids coming into the school the week before the CAS swimming carnival - strange coincidence that!

At least the GPS have implemented a new rule to try and stop the shameless mid season recruiting by some schools. As of this year each school had to submit a complete register of ALL students as of day 1 term 1. If a new boy comes to the school mid way through the year the school has to apply for special permission for him to be eligible to take part in GPS competitions. If the circumstance appear dodgy permission can be denied. Interestingly when the rule was implemented, the only school who made a fuss was Kings! Last year they poached a very good Athlete from Knox... just before GPS athletics... If that were to happen now the boy wouldn't be allowed to run until the following year. It won't stop schools but at least it demonstrates to the less scrupulous schools that the other schools are aware of their cheating ways!


Interestingly at the U16s Rugby champs last year there were only 3 boys in the NSW Schools side who didn't come from a Sydney private school. Totally coincidently one of those players has "decided" to do his Year 11 and 12 at Kings after the tournament. Not mentioning any names but he plays on the wing... Amazing how that coincidence seems to happen every year...

Would love to know who they were? Did yhey end up going to Knox and who made the `offer'
I have been a part of the Knox sporting community for 20+ years- vey involved in the Knox `Blacl & Blue Rugby' committee- as far as I am concerned there are no sporting scholarships under any guise at Knox. The Rugby programme is of their own doing, obviously assisted by being located in the strong Gordon & Eastwood feeder areas.

 

[Rob42]

Canadian Rugby –

I think the basis of people’s irritation with the concept of sporting scholarships goes back to one of the fundamentals that these schools all support – the idea that they should be helping to develop “well-rounded” young men, not just guys who can do well in the classroom and not just those who do well on the sporting field.

I don’t think there’s anything necessarily wrong with schools giving scholarships to students because of their excellence in one particular field, be it academic, music or other things. Having those guys around the school shows the others what true excellence looks like.

The danger, I think, is when the primary motivation for such scholarships is to beat the other school. When that’s the case, it quickly becomes too tempting to compromise on other values of the school to just make sure you grab the best talent. That’s particularly obvious with sport, although it can happen when a school wants to quickly bump up its exam results too.

As you mentioned, US college football shows this in the extreme – the college has a football team that is barely part of the campus other than wearing the uniform on Saturday: they train practically full-time, they have their own facilities (not just for training), the administration will bend just about every rule to keep a star player on the team. Failing your studies? That can be fixed. Stealing from college dorms – we’ll look after that. Success on the football field is just too important. I don’t want to ever see that happen in Australian schools.

And every dollar that is being spent on a sporting scholarship is a dollar not being spent on supporting others who might be considered more deserving – though of course, every person will have a different view on what that means.


Hope your team goes well at the RWC this year