School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[providence]

"To discuss schools breaking the rules to which they've agreed "

I am sure there is more to the discussion than who is breaking the rules.

I understand the title of this thread but over the past god knows how many pages people seem more concerned about the 'breaking of rules'.

I'm pretty sure few here actually want to discuss AAGPS 'rules' in full. The broader subject might be terribly awkward. 'Scholarships' are though only one very small part of the AAGPS code of conduct and hence 'Rules'.

So anyone here want to talk about the other rule breaks......strangely enough Scots not involved i don't believe! (I have no allegiance to them though!).

Any Riverview or SHORE fans want to kick this one off?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

think that after 4 years of some posters saying much the same negative comments over and over this thread should die away.
the rugby our kids play and aspire to is very different to the game we played at the same age and schools recruiting policies have changed too, to cater for a slightly different demographic to the one inside shoulder and quick hands and others hark back to. local parents are seek day and boarding places later due to cost plus the schools are also recruiting students from overseas . this means club land is now losing senior 16s+ players rather than (historically) from the 12-13s which leaves a bigger hole locally. please don"t shoot down those like Boof who want a less toxic debate.
the JGC has also proved that the selection pool is more diverse than before particularly with inter code selection where selectors are looking a talent with "a" ball not "the' ball plus on field fitness and agility . times are changing rapidly like it or not and sadly in this we are seeing the demise of gentlemenly behaviour and respect across society. Union is one of the last bastions of this and long may that continue.

I did not shoot Boof down I offered to discuss an underlying issue.
Have a looking the JGC thread and absorb some of the information contained in that if you think that is helping.
A lot of the talent that JGC could have accessed is warehoused in private schools: see the threads complaining about the number of illawarra kids lost to Sydney rugby in just 1 year - just as an example.
Can you explain how getting most of the talent taken into one of 4 or maybe 5 schools in Sydney is going to grow the game? It is precisely because not everyone can go to these schools that it will shrink the game.
I dont hark back to the olden days - I want a new day in which all kids play against all other kids at a level suiting their ability, irrespective of where they go to school.
Never happen? Probably not - but then I think this thread has had some impact in a wider community, even with the "powers that be" or whoever Growden said were out to get me

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Any Riverview or SHORE fans want to kick this one off?

I'm neither but can you give me a hint?

 

[lincoln]

I'm pretty sure few here actually want to discuss AAGPS 'rules' in full. Thee broader subject might be terribly awkward. 'Scholarships' are though only one very small part of the AAGPS code of conduct and hence 'Rules'.

So anyone here want to talk about the other rule breaks..

Any Riverview or SHORE fans want to kick this one off?

Jeez, can you give us a hint as to which rule we should be researching in order to broaden the discussion.

 

[tavytoo]

I did not shoot Boof down I offered to discuss an underlying issue.
Have a looking the JGC thread and absorb some of the information contained in that if you think that is helping.
A lot of the talent that JGC could have accessed is warehoused in private schools: see the threads complaining about the number of illawarra kids lost to Sydney rugby in just 1 year - just as an example.
Can you explain how getting most of the talent taken into one of 4 or maybe 5 schools in Sydney is going to grow the game? It is precisely because not everyone can go to these schools that it will shrink the game.
I dont hark back to the olden days - I want a new day in which all kids play against all other kids at a level suiting their ability, irrespective of where they go to school.
Never happen? Probably not - but then I think this thread has had some impact in a wider community, even with the "powers that be" or whoever Growden said were out to get me

Its not just happening in rugby but in all sports .we know several who have opted to stay with family in the week in sydney to be close to olympic park hub for swimming , hockey and athletics training and move state schools to do so or are travelling huge distances at least 2x a week. its when this travel gets to much for the whole family that thoughts turn to boarding and inevitably to "can we get a scholarship or bursary" whether its for the boarding component or as an "all rounder" . sometimes it is in the course of talking with other parents / school coaches or in event of particularly good performances that the "come and see us" approach is made. there is certainly a lot wrong with the sub elite and elite pathways, participation numbers at club level and who holds the power in our sport. we can only hope that those with the power use it equally across the state so that our country centres continue to thrive as much as the city and respective school associations . i never thought I'd say this as a tahs supporter but we hardly see them in the country . local schools rarely engage in the school union comps due to travel and teacher quals . why travel 1hr+ to a regional gala day at huge cost to parents for the bus when you can do a league, soccer or afl gala day for free in own locality all planned subsidised and refereed via these associations local development officer. sport used to be about a kick around on the local paddock and still needs to be if it is to survive . families around these parts often struggle to find rego fees to join their local club let alone enter the rep programmes. by only having a regional and state pathway we often lose the most natural players to the sports they can play locally. Its happening to the same extent at senior club level too with the distances travelled each week get bigger and bigger as team numbers reduce .enough said for today....

 

[Quick Hands]

"To discuss schools breaking the rules to which they've agreed "

I am sure there is more to the discussion than who is breaking the rules.

There's nothing wrong with discussing whether or not sporting scholarships should be given - there are valid views for and against. Plenty of discussison takes place on this.

However, if GPS schools award scholarships, bursaries, inducements or target talented sportsmen as part of their enrolment process, then that is against the rules.

 

[Quick Hands]

think that after 4 years of some posters saying much the same negative comments over and over this thread should die away.
the rugby our kids play and aspire to is very different to the game we played at the same age and schools recruiting policies have changed too, to cater for a slightly different demographic to the one inside shoulder and quick hands and others hark back to. local parents are seek day and boarding places later due to cost plus the schools are also recruiting students from overseas . this means club land is now losing senior 16s+ players rather than (historically) from the 12-13s which leaves a bigger hole locally. please don"t shoot down those like Boof who want a less toxic debate.
the JGC has also proved that the selection pool is more diverse than before particularly with inter code selection where selectors are looking a talent with "a" ball not "the' ball plus on field fitness and agility . times are changing rapidly like it or not and sadly in this we are seeing the demise of gentlemenly behaviour and respect across society. Union is one of the last bastions of this and long may that continue.

If you care to read my posts more carefully, you'd find that I don't hark back to the demographic of yesteryear, if fact I find that fact that rugby is still only appealing to the anglo-celtic demographic is a major part of the problem. You'll notice that the GPS schools who have the most diverse student body have the least rugby teams.

The sporting scholarship process actually serves to perpetuate this demographic of yesteryear by parachuting boys into GPS schools who are by and large anglo-celtic boys who already play rugby. When they leave the teams/schools that they previously played with, those teams often fold as the best player is now gone and he is often also the driving force in keeping the team together.

If the GPS wants to change its rules to allow sporting scholarships/bursaries/inducements, then there would be no "breaking of the rules" but while those rules are in place, it's a bit sad that schools which purport to instill values of honestly and honour decide to break those rules.

 

[Quick Hands]

I understand the title of this thread but over the past god knows how many pages people seem more concerned about the 'breaking of rules'.

I'm pretty sure few here actually want to discuss AAGPS 'rules' in full. The broader subject might be terribly awkward. 'Scholarships' are though only one very small part of the AAGPS code of conduct and hence 'Rules'.

So anyone here want to talk about the other rule breaks..strangely enough Scots not involved i don't believe! (I have no allegiance to them though!).

Any Riverview or SHORE fans want to kick this one off?

Start the discussion and we'll be with you

 

[whistleblower]

TKS and TSC 1's and 2's games in the balance as Head of Sports for both schools refusing to placate parents' demand for an even playing field. In a show of defiance TSC parents sided with TKS parents tonight and have demanded what changes if any TSC will announce. Should they go in with the all-imports or blood a few of their own is completey unresolved at this stage.

 

[Jasdec]

Really WB, can you confirm if all the Scots parents took a vote "tonight" and decided to back the HOS at Kings.
Lay off the terps on Tuesday evenings.

 

[Gregor]

Love your mischief WB, but you must be on a different planet to me. TSC will field its best possible teams in 1st and 2nds and will have the support of 99% of TSC parents, students and old boys in doing so. There will always be a disgruntled minority who want to believe their little Johnny is better than what he actually is, has been hard done by, and should be playing 1st or 2nds.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Their disgruntlement may stem from the fact that he's been usurped at the last hurdle, or that RBHS, Waverley or some other institution lost the mainstay of their team, snuffing out another candle in the free world.

 

[Gregor]

I was waiting for your reply comrade IS. If he is good enough, he will remain in the team. There is no loss in playing for the 2nds or 3rds. In fact I think the 3rds competition is the most competitive and interesting comp in AAGPS.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Hmmmmm.
He was good enough but then an opportunity presented itself to the school which meant his good enoughness becomes questionable.
I'm all for kids (and, for that matter, adults) facing their limitations.
I think my problem is that I don't understand why winning the GPS 1st XV comp has become so important that it is OK to scuttle the soundly based expectations of teenagers that have been built up over years. But that's my problem.

 

[Azzuri]

Hmmmmm.
He was good enough but then an opportunity presented itself to the school which meant his good enoughness becomes questionable.
I'm all for kids (and, for that matter, adults) facing their limitations.
I think my problem is that I don't understand why winning the GPS 1st XV comp has become so important that it is OK to scuttle the soundly based expectations of teenagers that have been built up over years. But that's my problem.

Isn't this a refection of what happens in the big wide world after you leave the cosseted confines of your school.

You work your guts out climbing the corporate ladder, do everything required to position yourself as a "good and dependable soldier" preparing for that next promotion. But over time you expose yourself to the long term scrutiny of others who know and understand the things you do well and things you don't do well. When the inevitable promotional opportunity arises you miss out, not to a colleague, but to someone from outside the Company. You have a right to be disgruntled and upset that your "expectations" have been crushed, but it is the way of the world.

At some point even rockstars get passed over in favour of another, rightly or wrongly. You can lament the slap in the face or you can harden up, work your guts out and put yourself back in contention. Take a look at Wobblies who've played over the last 10 years.....not all of them were in the first XV....and many have had their expectations crushed along the way.

The implication that every year 10 lad who joins a GPS school is there because of a bursary or scholarship as a result of sporting prowess is just plain absurd. So even under under "the rules" if they are good enough they have just as much right to a spot in the top team as someone who started in year 7.

 

[Gregor]

I give these kids more credit. Particular, kids of this generation who live in a very fluid , competitive and fast changing world. My 14 year old boy is playing A's and B's, but he understands that there are no guarantees that this is where he will play from year to year. He loves the game and enjoys the mate ship that goes with it. He does his very best , trains hard, plays hard and that is all anyone can ask of him. If he were one day to play for his school 1st XV then that would be a huge honour for him, but there is no expectation, neither should there be that this is his god given right. Sometimes it is the parents expectations that are skewed and need management. So why is winning so important? Everybody loves a winner. There is no doubt part of the reason for the increase in boys playing rugby at TSC is a result of the recent success of their 1st XV. I do however appreciate where you are coming from IS. I do agree that winning at all cost is not healthy for the game and is not a positive message we wish to impart on kids.

 

[Boof]

The implication that every year 10 lad who joins a GPS school is there because of a bursary or scholarship as a result of sporting prowess is just plain absurd. So even under under "the rules" if they are good enough they have just as much right to a spot in the top team as someone who started in year 7.[/quote]


We lost 4 boys from our area last year to Sydney schools and 3 are all full fee paying GPS students the 4th has had very minor help and it is not a GPS school, just a "leg up "for a country lad. Parents just want the best shot at an education and the benefits the go along with these schools that simply can not be gained in the public system at least in the country anyway.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

The implication that every year 10 lad who joins a GPS school is there because of a bursary or scholarship as a result of sporting prowess is just plain absurd.

Not sure if this is directed at me: I have never implied it you may have inferred it.
The real lesson - even in the example you cite - is that you strive to overcome your weaknesses, both as an individual and as a team.
So when you don't have that world beating openside, in schoolboy sport, the team must learn to build around that shortcoming and overcome it. Learning to live with those weaknesses that cannot be overcome.
That's the lesson sport is meant to teach. Parachuting in kids to plug the weaknesses confuses the lesson and treats the outcome of a game or a competition as the measure of the kids who competed in it: which it is not.
If it were professional sport or business thats difference: but the defeats that don't matter teach you how to deal with the one's that do.

 

[Boof]

Not sure if this is directed at me: I have never implied it you may have inferred it.
The real lesson - even in the example you cite - is that you strive to overcome your weaknesses, both as an individual and as a team.
So when you don't have that world beating openside, in schoolboy sport, the team must learn to build around that shortcoming and overcome it. Learning to live with those weaknesses that cannot be overcome.
That's the lesson sport is meant to teach. Parachuting in kids to plug the weaknesses confuses the lesson and treats the outcome of a game or a competition as the measure of the kids who competed in it: which it is not.
If it were professional sport or business thats difference: but the defeats that don't matter teach you how to deal with the one's that do.

WTF, save us the lectures they are getting very boring with the self righteous speeches and diversions away from what was actually said. Bottom line is these schools are a "business" and in business you do not accept your shortcomings you find a way to bolster your team, if you don't like it don't send your kids there, let them fight it out at the local public school. I'm sure you would find more to whinge about there. If boys who are home grown talent as such miss out on selection, this may just be the life lesson that gives them the edge in character when it "really matters". Anyway good luck to all those boys on scholarships or bursaries I hope they take their rugby as far as they can and enjoy the ride along the way.
Seriously why are you so sour on this. I am sure this will upset you IS but such is life I had to get it out.

 

[Azzuri]

Not sure if this is directed at me: I have never implied it you may have inferred it.
The real lesson - even in the example you cite - is that you strive to overcome your weaknesses, both as an individual and as a team.
So when you don't have that world beating openside, in schoolboy sport, the team must learn to build around that shortcoming and overcome it. Learning to live with those weaknesses that cannot be overcome.
That's the lesson sport is meant to teach. Parachuting in kids to plug the weaknesses confuses the lesson and treats the outcome of a game or a competition as the measure of the kids who competed in it: which it is not.
If it were professional sport or business thats difference: but the defeats that don't matter teach you how to deal with the one's that do.

Are you really suggesting that the best available players shouldn't be selected?

If you are good enough, you get in, if not you work hard to make it. If that means little Johnny doesn't get selected for the spot he's played for 4 years then so be it. It's a lesson kids also need to learn that you don't get a chair just because you sat down first...whether you are with or "sans parachute".

If a lad doesn't have the capacity to avoid the team having to divert energy to defend his weaknesses then any right minded coach would be looking for a replacement. It's a case of the greater good being the driver rather than unrealistic expectations. Not everyone can play in the A's or first XV....and yes there will be new lads that can fill the breach on occasion..

There is no such thing as the perfect team so mitigating weaknesses is part and parcel of the coaches and players joint responsibility. If they can't resolve issues with training and team tactics then personnel changes are inevitable and expected.

Coaches and teams don't get rewarded for learning life lessons about overcoming adversity or learning how to take a loss....such life lessons are best taught by responsible parents.