School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Tim]

My understanding is that it doesn't matter who made the approach, just whether or not the financial assistance/bursary/scholarship/inducement is based on sporting ability. My personal opinion is that 5 schools out of the 8 are doing so - some probably to a greater degree than others and some are probably more subtle than others.

The relevent section of the AAGPS code of practice reads:

In the light of these principles, the GPS Headmasters affirm the following code of practice:

No inducements such as sporting scholarships, whether direct, disguised, or at arm's length, shall be offered by any member school. Financial assistance to talented sportsmen shall not form part of the enrolment strategy of any member school.

Source AAGPS website​

That is very interesting ... I know that many schools award students and prospective students for their 'drive' in whatever endeavor they may seek, no matter how intelligent or sports gifted they may be... in addition, remembering that sport is a career these days, and schooling is in preparation for a career amongst of things, it seems absurd that academic scholarships are acceptable, yet sporting scholarships are not? Does the GPS debating competition have such conversations or equal rules? If SGS, SJC, TKS, TSC, SCEGS etc. are approached by young men wishing to attend their school for whatever reason, I say that is fair game. They have chosen to approach that school, not has that school chosen to approach or source them based on their ability. I feel for the students who have commenced a GPS school after years 7 or 8 to gain an educational advantage or sporting advantage... actually I hope they don't read this publicly available forum... I also respect the rules governed by the AAGPS, although I believe they could be better revisioned. I would greatly appreciate others opinions if you wish to contribute. Regards




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[Kenny Powers]

The AAGPS can write whatever rules or guidelines they want the technical interpretation will always preclude anyone from ever breaching these rules.

All schools have Boards or Councils with multiple representatives from the corporate world on them. These council members from their corporate experience will be extremely well versed in matters of interpretation, compliance, matters of law etc. They will also be across the finances of the school and where full fee paying parents money is spent.

Anyone that thinks financial sponsorship of rugby players has the direct endorsement of any School Boards or Councils or they will find it noted in the minutes of meetings is kidding themselves.

That's not to say that rugby players are not 'attracted', it just does not happen in such a direct manner that I think a lot people envisage. Nor will writing rules and by laws stop it.

The ultimate safeguard (I hope) is that these very same Directors /Councillors have an obligation to a 'broad' education for all and financial accountability over expenditure and their personal reputations to maintain.

 

[Kenny Powers]

There are some qualitative issues separating Joeys. Happy to be corrected but it is my understanding they have big intakes in Years 9 & 11 - not sure of exact numbers but from roughly 110-120 to 140-150 to 180-190, which is different to the other GPS .

Not sure if my maths is off here.

Tight Head Lion I believe worked at Joeys and in the GPS 2013 forum mention the Joeys Headmaster coached the 13H's. This would indicate at least 8 teams requiring 120 players without reserves, from a first form that numbers 110 - 120.

Is rugby the only winter sport option for first formers, because if not it is a mighty effort to field 8 teams from a 110 - 120 first form intake.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

This is information that would have been helpful earlier in your deposition.

Helpful to whom?
It should make no difference.
To the extent that it makes a difference, no one plays all their cards at once, do they?

 

[Inside Shoulder]

remembering that sport is a career these days, and schooling is in preparation for a career amongst of things, it seems absurd that academic scholarships are acceptable, yet sporting scholarships are not?Sent from my Z10 using Tapatalk 2

How many boys from GPS schools, however they got there, make a career out of sport?
How many of those suspected of being on "sporting scholarships for rugby" make a living from playing rugby at any time after they leave school?
The tiny number who do this each year means that the GPS competition is being skewed, ostensibly on the basis that there is an equivalence between a professional rugby career and all other careers for which school may prepare one.
Skewing the GPS competition in this surreptitous way has a number of unintended consequences - all of which have been raised at various points in this thread and do not require repetition.
The unintended consequence that is of most significance to rugby generally, and hence to me, is that poaching these kids from the various school systems they were in weakens the rugby in those systems, and/or village rugby if the kids were not playing school rugby. Have a look at some of the other threads, in particular CHS rugby, and see how what used to be a strong rugby system is now no longer - with no mid week competition.
At a time when we need to be expanding the base of the rugby pyramid poaching kids from other systems only narrows it, lessening the size of the gene pool to the detriment, perhaps permanently, of the game in this country.

 

[Tim]

How many boys from GPS schools, however they got there, make a career out of sport?
How many of those suspected of being on "sporting scholarships for rugby" make a living from playing rugby at any time after they leave school?
The tiny number who do this each year means that the GPS competition is being skewed, ostensibly on the basis that there is an equivalence between a professional rugby career and all other careers for which school may prepare one.
Skewing the GPS competition in this surreptitous way has a number of unintended consequences - all of which have been raised at various points in this thread and do not require repetition.
The unintended consequence that is of most significance to rugby generally, and hence to me, is that poaching these kids from the various school systems they were in weakens the rugby in those systems, and/or village rugby if the kids were not playing school rugby. Have a look at some of the other threads, in particular CHS rugby, and see how what used to be a strong rugby system is now no longer - with no mid week competition.
At a time when we need to be expanding the base of the rugby pyramid poaching kids from other systems only narrows it, lessening the size of the gene pool to the detriment, perhaps permanently, of the game in this country.

That is a great point, and I agree with you. Although the differencing factor from what I was touching on is 'poaching students' verses 'schools being approached by students'.

You touched on some really interesting and important topics in your statement, especially regarding as a whole the health of our schools ecosystems. In addition to this I believe it is important for Australian rugby, that 'local' talent stays local, so that we have many strong school rugby competitions and not just one. By having a diverse spread of talent it means that the lesser talented boys are able to play along side the more skilled boys and learn and improve from that experience, which in turn makes Australia a better Rugby nation. I think a prime example of where this is not happening is in our Sydney club rugby... going a bit off track, but if you had the Wallabies playing more club games for there true local clubs, eg. not Sydney uni, imagine the crowds and the boost from the community for those clubs, and the benefit that would bring to local and Australian rugby! Sorry for getting off topic...

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[Inside Shoulder]

I think a prime example of where this is not happening is in our Sydney club rugby

I think what is happening in club rugby from the bottom up is arguably more worrying than what happens to it from the top down.

 

[Quick Hands]

That is a great point, and I agree with you. Although the differencing factor from what I was touching on is 'poaching students' verses 'schools being approached by students'.


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The students have to come from somewhere. Unless they are from another GPS school, their move to a GPS school must weaken the competition from which they came. Although in the case of CHS rugby, there is no longer a competition to weaken, it's already gone.

 

[Man on the hill]

The students have to come from somewhere. Unless they are from another GPS school, their move to a GPS school must weaken the competition from which they came. Although in the case of CHS rugby, there is no longer a competition to weaken, it's already gone.

CHS may already be gone or going, but every "import" into the GPS / CAS system is another nail in the coffin of Club based junior rugby in Sydney, so it is damaging to the "fabric" of junior rugby.

 

[GPSrow]

CHS may already be gone or going, but every "import" into the GPS / CAS system is another nail in the coffin of Club based junior rugby in Sydney, so it is damaging to the "fabric" of junior rugby.

as i will say now, where theres money, there's opportunity. And where there's oppurtunity, there's making the Wallabies.

Gentlemen, Rugby Union is a rich man's sport. No matter what will happen, we are the Human being's of the food Chain as to compare the GPS competitions of Australia.

The only solution is to not change what we have done, but sustain what we have done and to protect our sportsmen/clubs for the future. Bring all school's to the surface and announce that sports scholarships are being given out. This must be socio-economically means tested with a cap of 2-3 sporting scholarships per grade at a maximum.

That is all.

 

[CTPE]

How many boys from GPS schools, however they got there, make a career out of sport?
How many of those suspected of being on "sporting scholarships for rugby" make a living from playing rugby at any time after they leave school?
The tiny number who do this each year means that the GPS competition is being skewed, ostensibly on the basis that there is an equivalence between a professional rugby career and all other careers for which school may prepare one.
Skewing the GPS competition in this surreptitous way has a number of unintended consequences - all of which have been raised at various points in this thread and do not require repetition.
The unintended consequence that is of most significance to rugby generally, and hence to me, is that poaching these kids from the various school systems they were in weakens the rugby in those systems, and/or village rugby if the kids were not playing school rugby. Have a look at some of the other threads, in particular CHS rugby, and see how what used to be a strong rugby system is now no longer - with no mid week competition.
At a time when we need to be expanding the base of the rugby pyramid poaching kids from other systems only narrows it, lessening the size of the gene pool to the detriment, perhaps permanently, of the game in this country.

Perhaps it's worth contemplating whether talented kids actually leave the CHS system as much for the challenge of playing rugby at a much more competitive level as for the educational and social opportunities that GPS/CAS/ISA schools offer them. Over the last two years I've posted a couple of times about the absolute abandonment of organised sport within the State comprehensive high school system. Compared to what was happening in the 60's and 70's and even the early 80's, before the proliferation of both academic and sports selective high schools , comprehensive state high schools had a long and proud heritage of school sports participation. Looking at my wife's yearbook from the late 70's at a co-ed non selective comprehensive high school there are photos of rowing teams, tennis teams, soccer teams, rugby league teams, netball teams, basketball teams, cricket teams, hockey teams, swimming teams, athletics teams and gymnastic teams. Sport in those and many previous decades was a significant part of school life at comprehensive state high schools throughout the state as were the competitions between these schools.

But what exists now? Sweet f### all - and whose fault is that? - the GPS, CAS or ISA schools? - no way. Successive state governments should hang their heads in shame for allowing sports participation within comprehensive schools to wither on the vine - the death of sport at these institutions is a disgrace.

 

[Gristlechewer]

Nominate the posts G.

Forensic investigation read and reread. Absolute loads of innuendo and what could be contrived as... But, no.
In saying this though, after reading 3 years worth of posts, one quote that comes to mind is... "Same shit, different day"
You can almost quote what whinge is going to come next and from whom. Fellow GaGRers, we are all just going 'round and 'round each and every year... I might just play aussie towns trivia and read only, like so many others now choose to do. Au revoir

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Perhaps it's worth contemplating whether talented kids actually leave the CHS system as much for the challenge of playing rugby at a much more competitive level as for the educational and social opportunities that GPS/CAS/ISA schools offer them. Over the last two years I've posted a couple of times about the absolute abandonment of organised sport within the State comprehensive high school system. Compared to what was happening in the 60's and 70's and even the early 80's, before the proliferation of both academic and sports selective high schools , comprehensive state high schools had a long and proud heritage of school sports participation. Looking at my wife's yearbook from the late 70's at a co-ed non selective comprehensive high school there are photos of rowing teams, tennis teams, soccer teams, rugby league teams, netball teams, basketball teams, cricket teams, hockey teams, swimming teams, athletics teams and gymnastic teams. Sport in those and many previous decades was a significant part of school life at comprehensive state high schools throughout the state as were the competitions between these schools.

But what exists now? Sweet f### all - and whose fault is that? - the GPS, CAS or ISA schools? - no way. Successive state governments should hang their heads in shame for allowing sports participation within comprehensive schools to wither on the vine - the death of sport at these institutions is a disgrace.

The whole rugby under age system, at least in NSW, is fractured.
There is no doubt that the GPS virtual blanket prohibition on kids playing village rugby, from which the kids they are poaching often come, undermines village rugby.
If you look back 2 years to the 6 boys who went to Newington immediately after playing in the under 16's championship where did they come from?
For the individual kids there may be no choice, if they want to play rugby, but to go to one of the private schools.
It's a vicious circle.
The least the poaching school could do for the good of rugby would be to make it a condition of the assistance that they not sign with league teams - of course the schools can't, wont, and shouldnt do that because they're charter does not include improving the game of rugby as played generally in this country.
All of which highlights the absence of the ARU from the process of rationalising the structure of under age rugby.
The ARU's underage development program in NSW consists of hoping that the 4 or 5 GPS schools pick up the talented youngsters from the u16's and offer them a a scholarship.
Gold Program is, apparently, not intended to be elite so it doesn't count: they want each player to be the best player he can be and they stress that it is not a Wallaby development program.

 

[Quick Hands]

CTPE & IS, visit the Waratah Shield thread, and you'll learn as I did to my horror yesterday, that there are only 3 comprehensive state high schools entered in the Waratah Shield!

Scholarships aren't the reason for this, but have probably played a part and accelerated the death of rugby in the CHS system, which basically now consists of 1 off gala days (but every participant is still counted as a player - so the numbers stay healthy).

You're both right - ARU/NSWRU have been absent and the Education Dept completely uninterested.

 

[gpsoldboy]

The whole rugby under age system, at least in NSW, is fractured.
There is no doubt that the GPS virtual blanket prohibition on kids playing village rugby, from which the kids they are poaching often come, undermines village rugby.

I don't agree with this. My experience and observations have been that GPS schools wholeheartedly support their rugby players playing at village/club rugby level and want their boys to play as much rugby as possible. Every weekend you'll see plenty of GPS boys backing up after their Saturday games to play in the Sunday SJRU competitions. It is only at post U16s level that there is any suggestion or edict that players at Opens level restrict their weekend rugby mainly due to the increased physicality of the game at that age.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I don't agree with this. My experience and observations have been that GPS schools wholeheartedly support their rugby players playing at village/club rugby level and want their boys to play as much rugby as possible. Every weekend you'll see plenty of GPS boys backing up after their Saturday games to play in the Sunday SJRU competitions. It is only at post U16s level that there is any suggestion or edict that players at Opens level restrict their weekend rugby mainly due to the increased physicality of the game at that age.

That is precisely the level I am talking about - hence my reference to kids appearing at Newington after the u16s champs.


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[strokeside]

It is only at post U16s level that there is any suggestion or edict that players at Opens level restrict their weekend rugby mainly due to the increased physicality of the game at that age.

gpsoldboy sure you are not a GPS sports master, your comments sound very much like a GPS MIC of sport!
This is also precisely the level where yr11 boys can get totally shafted, ie; an existing player that may have started in the 13c's or d's has worked hard, also probably watched and supported the 1st's, maybe even also played club too improve his game and come through the ranks to be playing 16a's. (you know where this is going) some rugby "star" lobs in yr10 and one good little player never gets the chance to run on at 3.15. Although by this time he has probably been brainwashed to the point of least resistance, so he sees this more as strengthening the 1st's for a shot at the premiership, and not him missing out.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Interesting that this debate is almost entirely NSW AAGPS based, with no comment coming from North of the Tweed River.

My snouts tell me that up there offering rugby and sports scholarships is an open practice, although not all schools participate in it.

Any QLD readers care to comment?

 

[gpsoldboy]

That is precisely the level I am talking about - hence my reference to kids appearing at Newington after the u16s champs.


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Noted but you made a blanket statement - "There is no doubt that the GPS virtual blanket prohibition on kids playing village rugby, from which the kids they are poaching often come, undermines village rugby" - there was no qualification in your post about it being about just players older than U16s level.

 

[gpsoldboy]

gpsoldboy sure you are not a GPS sports master, your comments sound very much like a GPS MIC of sport!
This is also precisely the level where yr11 boys can get totally shafted, ie; an existing player that may have started in the 13c's or d's has worked hard, also probably watched and supported the 1st's, maybe even also played club too improve his game and come through the ranks to be playing 16a's. (you know where this is going) some rugby "star" lobs in yr10 and one good little player never gets the chance to run on at 3.15. Although by this time he has probably been brainwashed to the point of least resistance, so he sees this more as strengthening the 1st's for a shot at the premiership, and not him missing out.

My comment was made in response to the specific statement that: "There is no doubt that the GPS virtual blanket prohibition on kids playing village rugby, from which the kids they are poaching often come, undermines village rugby" - your response transcends to the issue of sporting scholarships generally.