Scotland v Australia 12Nov16 Saturday

[amirite]

Ideally, McMahon wouldn't start in his first game back from a month off. That doesn't mean benching Hooper isn't the right thing to do anyway.

Timani's workload hasn't been TOO high, so maybe get Fards into the 6.

 

[PeterK]

Or the others have picked up their involvements and he doesn't have to carry the load himself.

No his main contribution is his work rate.

Why then does Pocock have such a higher work rate?

 

[Braveheart81]

No his main contribution is his work rate.

Why then does Pocock have such a higher work rate?

Everyone's contribution can be described by their workrate and the effectiveness in which they do it.

Pocock had more runs than usual in that game which is perhaps an indication that the ball spent more time in his area of the field than it often does.

I don't think it necessarily provides much value to try and rate someone's game based solely on adding together a few stats.

This certainly wasn't one of Hooper's strongest games because he wasn't right up amongst our MOTM candidates as he normally is but likewise it's hard to say he had a poor game, was lazy or needs a rest based on some statistical output.

 

[formerflanker]

No his main contribution is his work rate.

Why then does Pocock have such a higher work rate?

I'm not sure how to answer your question, other than to say both players contribute mightily to the green and gold. When you measure the full range of things they both do during a Test we need to measure number of ruck involvements, ruck effectiveness, meters gained with ball in hand, number of runs made, tackles made, dominant tackles made, decoy runs, kick chase, kick receipts, line out participation, and any more I've forgotten.
No wonder Cheika went for the Pooper - both players are world class.

 

[amirite]

This is really about the tyranny of small sample sizes of data. You can't tell shit from 2 games.

Coaches obviously have more data (GPS from training and hte like).

 

[PeterK]

Everyone's contribution can be described by their workrate and the effectiveness in which they do it.

Pocock had more runs than usual in that game which is perhaps an indication that the ball spent more time in his area of the field than it often does.

I don't think it necessarily provides much value to try and rate someone's game based solely on adding together a few stats.

This certainly wasn't one of Hooper's strongest games because he wasn't right up amongst our MOTM candidates as he normally is but likewise it's hard to say he had a poor game, was lazy or needs a rest based on some statistical output.

Never said he had a poor game or that he was lazy. Where did I rate his whole game? Stop adding things which I did not mention.

Hooper is noted as an energiser bunny yet his involvemnts last 2 games has been down a lot.

He has a lot more minutes played this year when you add super rugby and tests together. I believe there is evidence indeed that a rest or off the bench (my preference) against France would be good for him.

 

[ForceFan]

Do you have a pathway to making money with your analysis skill? I'm sure a Premier Grade coach would be happy to use your skills, from there who knows.

Thanks mate.....I don't think they could afford my hourly rate!

 

[PeterK]

There seems to be an overly defensive reaction to any implied criticism of Hooper.

I was surprised that merely pointing out he could be tired from playing a lot more than anyone else this year and evidenced that his involvements are well down for 2 games from his normally very high ones that he could do with a rest against France that so many jump to unnecessary defence of Hooper.

 

[Strewthcobber]

There seems to be an overly defensive reaction to any implied criticism of Hooper.

I was surprised that merely pointing out he could be tired from playing a lot more than anyone else this year and evidenced that his involvements are well down for 2 games from his normally very high ones that he could do with a rest against France that so many jump to unnecessary defence of Hooper.

To be fair Peter people have been using Force Fans stats to promote Hooper or Pocock ever since he started publishing them.

And its usually to criticise Hooper.

Not saying you are doing this, but that's the background.

 

[PeterK]

To be fair Peter people have been using Force Fans stats to promote Hooper or Pocock ever since he started publishing them.

And its usually to criticise Hooper.

Not saying you are doing this, but that's the background.

Thanks.

I know that a lot prefer Pocock for his effectiveness at the ruck, what some people say is a core role for a 7.

If I was focused on turnovers and forced penalties and derided Hooper and ignored the value he adds in attack or wide defence then fair enough.

A comparison of the 2 requires looking at what they provide in totality and balance to the team.

I dislike playing Pooper due to the impact on lineouts and in tight ball carrying etc.
If Fardy starts then I see the argument for Hooper starting otherwise Pocock.

However I was purely looking at Hooper needing a small break since his workload has been so high and it seems to have effected his workrate.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I don't think Foley is thought of poorly, just that he has some weaknesses that can be a problem in certain games. But he isn't the only one in the Wallabies.

As an aside DHP strikes me as a more natural 12 than Hodge, and could take a lot of pressure off Foley's kicking.

Also Hodges play at 12 is similar to Kerevi, so not sure why we could have a KK centre combo when he is back. Could be a scary prospect for opposition teams

Nah green and gold rugby fans have their pet likes and dislikes - I would be surprised if that mirrored general public perceptions. Foley has proven over last 3 games that in current form best 10 for the job. He may be no dan carter but best 10 in oz on form with cooper not far behind.

You will get the usual lunatics trying to say otherwise but any expert pundits would agree last 3 games for foley been good which is why they have given him high player ratings.


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[PeterK]

Nah green and gold rugby fans have their pet likes and dislikes - I would be surprised if that mirrored general public perceptions. Foley has proven over last 3 games that in current form best 10 for the job. He may be no dan carter but best 10 in oz on form with cooper not far behind.

You will get the usual lunatics trying to say otherwise but any expert pundits would agree last 3 games for foley been good which is why they have given him high player ratings.


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The general public perceptions would depend on what country you are talking about.

In England, Scotland they value goal kicking a lot so are happy to overlook other flaws when Foley kicked all his goals.

In SA they value general play kicking and goal kicking. They don't value a 10 running the ball or a creative 10.

In Australia they value a running 10 more than a creative 10.

In NZ they value a creative 10 that runs the backline well the most.

 

[tragic]

Nah green and gold rugby fans have their pet likes and dislikes - I would be surprised if that mirrored general public perceptions. Foley has proven over last 3 games that in current form best 10 for the job. He may be no dan carter but best 10 in oz on form with cooper not far behind.
You will get the usual lunatics trying to say otherwise but any expert pundits would agree last 3 games for foley been good which is why they have given him high player ratings.
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I don't think anyone would say foley played badly in the last 3 games.
But you can't say he's the best 10 for the job without seeing the alternative, and the alternative has had almost no game time.
I still have concerns about foley against a strong rush defense and when we are under defensive pressure in our 22, and we haven't seen that much in the last two games .
If you think I'm a lunatic for voicing those concerns then so be it.
But I think it's actually more balanced than claiming a good game and a win against a sub par Wales and Scotland makes up for key deficiencies which become more apparent against higher ranked sides.
Cooper comes with his own problems but as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out until we see strong performances against NZ/Ireland/Eng.

 

[tragic]

No wonder Cheika went for the Pooper - both players are world class.

Neither player would make any position other than 7 in a world 15 or in the All Blacks side (or probably Eng for that matter) Both certainly would not feature in the same side.
There is no argument that they are not both outstanding players.
It's whether we should be playing two 7s at the expense of other aspects of our game, particularly now we have a proven option at 8.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

No tragic I don't think you are a lunatic for voicing concerns - note I am also being cheeky as I enjoy the debate on here - but you acknowledge he has played well last 3 games and that is way cookie crumbles for those behind the scenes....they get opportunities when others stumble which is how Cooper got some game time when Foley last had poor patch. Cooper will get his chance.....

As for concerns on Foley on rush defence...you should see Brian Smiths blog on oz - Scotland game and how they attempted to nullify Foley....little game clip worth watching put in that blog showing how he had to take the hits whilst still getting out quick passes which many expert pundits credited he did so well.....on that game you would have to say he did very well with rush defence.....I had more respect for Foley after watching that....shows what he had to endure whilst still getting quick fire passes out (big hits after the pass).

 

[Train Without a Station]

Just a note I was watching the highlights from the game last night.

For Hodge's try Foley takes the ball and runs completely sideways - at 90 degrees to the try line.

I was completely shocked to see sideways running result in breaking the line and a try, as I was told it does not and you have to always be direct........

 

[amirite]

Just a note I was watching the highlights from the game last night.

For Hodge's try Foley takes the ball and runs completely sideways - at 90 degrees to the try line.

I was completely shocked to see sideways running result in breaking the line and a try, as I was told it does not and you have to always be direct....

I don't know if this is tongue-in-cheek, but the professional coaches have moved on from this mindset, though somebody has to straighten eventually to go forward .

It works best for flyhalves that have disciplined back lines that don't drift with them, or if you're as winger with a 1-on-1 with someone you can burn.

 

[KOB1987]

I'm not sure what you are getting there TWAS. The inference you make is that he runs sideways with the ball. It's clearly a set move and looks as though the purpose is make the bloke defending on DHP to have to shift his focus to Foley and create an overlap.

Foley receives the ball from the lineout at first receiver, takes 2 steps and passes to Folau at 2nd receiver. Immediately on passing Foley then sprints sideways and loops around Folau who pops the ball to Foley on his outside. Foley then immediately straightens and makes about 5m over the gain line and offloads to DHP who is now in a hole.

I'm not sure what the problem is? Or is there a bit of sarcasm in your post?

 

[Twoilms]

I'm not sure what you are getting there TWAS. The inference you make is that he runs sideways with the ball. It's clearly a set move and looks as though the purpose is make the bloke defending on DHP to have to shift his focus to Foley and create an overlap.

Foley receives the ball from the lineout at first receiver, takes 2 steps and passes to Folau at 2nd receiver. Immediately on passing Foley then sprints sideways and loops around Folau who pops the ball to Foley on his outside. Foley then immediately straightens and makes about 5m over the gain line and offloads to DHP who is now in a hole.

I'm not sure what the problem is? Or is there a bit of sarcasm in your post?

Seems like a roundabout way of saying that all those critics of Coopers crabby style are fools because Foley executed a slick as fuck wrap around.



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[Hawko]

Just a note I was watching the highlights from the game last night.

For Hodge's try Foley takes the ball and runs completely sideways - at 90 degrees to the try line.

I was completely shocked to see sideways running result in breaking the line and a try, as I was told it does not and you have to always be direct....

I am reminded of the quote about Mark Ella: "touch it twice and we score, touch it thrice and he scores".