Scrum tactics

[Pfitzy]

Having witnessed nearly every technique in the lower half of Subbies over five years, it is interesting to see how things have changed.

The day i played against Tony Daly (him loose head, me tight head), he had his left foot well advanced - this stops the scrum collapsing in the days when the ref rightly kept his nose out of the whole damn situation and let the men sort it out. A few older props do this to a greater or lesser degree, and adjust during the game depending on the opponent. It also makes boring in easier

The young guy who was at my coaching course (First XV at school and rep level I'm told), under instruction from the head of NSW referees during one of the demo sessions, had his feet parallel in the modern style, where refs control the hit, and scrums collapse a heel of a lot more often.

I've seen everything in between and wonder which will be the more dominant style in the new age.

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I hate autocorrect ...

 

[Dam0]

Stop posting such rubbish Rassie. I have no clue why you think you needed to post that. It doesn't add to the conversation at all.

 

[FairWeatherAussie]

I'm having trouble comprehending this whole debate. I don't think there is anyone on either side of the Tasman that didn't realize that Joubert made a pretty bad mistake, it should have been a long arm to the Brumbies. Even the Indian Ocean would not prove much of an obstacle since Joubert will have had to face his referees review after the game.

 

[Rassie]

DamO I am confused. Are you saying that me mentioning the fact that the Brumbies did not concede a single scrum penalty or free kick do not add to the conversation? So how do the calls of Joubert being biased and punishing the weaker scrum fit in then?

 

[USARugger]

Pfitzy

I think that a fair part of the issue is the tendency of some Australian props to shift their feet after the hit. There are a myriad of reasons why they could be moving their feet but it happens way too often. Much of the time they seem to be trying to shift from the parallel stance to having one foot slightly forward but end up getting blown up the second they lift their foot off the ground.

There are a couple reasons this could be happening but I think the most likely is the way some of our props pack down. Packing with your ass above your shoulders is a sure-fire way to lose your balance during 'the hit' and be forced to readjust your stance which then takes all of your power away from you. Instead of just punching through it seems some of the guys are hitting, trying to readjust and then getting blasted by opposition who do it all in one smooth motion.

 

[cyclopath]

DamO I am confused. Are you saying that me mentioning the fact that the Brumbies did not concede a single scrum penalty or free kick do not add to the conversation? So how do the calls of Joubert being biased and punishing the weaker scrum fit in then?

What calls of bias? You invented that shit. The issue was whether he made a bad call on that scrum, not a biased call. Stop trolling.

 

[Dam0]

I can't even remember what you posted, except that my initial reaction to it was that it was rubbish that did not contribute to the discussion in any way. Suffice to say that your last post doesn't add much either.

 

[Rassie]

Cyclopath. The post I quoted which you quoted then was saying Joubert was bias and punished the weaker scrum. Hence my answer to it which in turn you quoted. Go have a look.

As for the scrum incident. Maybe someone can put a clip up as you can hear Joubert call use it before it hit the 90. Brumbies did not and it went 90. Laws say its a turn over. He even gave the Brumbies a warning so there is nothing wrong with it. I would blame the SH for not using it.

 

[MajorlyRagerly]

Looking forward to the EOYT immensely now.

Be interesting to see what crap the NH "journalists" will come up with, when these new rules, as proposed and demonstrated by Brian Moore, don't suddenly mean that every single scrum penalty goes the way of the NH team as per their expectations.

I'm still guessing blaming the ref.

On a more serious topic, I've never played in the front row, and I've never professed to really having a clue whats going on there, but surely this will help us go back to to the old "if your going forwards, you win" mantra. Something I"ve subscribed to consistently over the last 25 odd years regardless of what is being ruled.

 

[FrankLind]

I know we'll find out soon enough, but anyone got predictions as to which nations will benefit or be harmed by these new scrum laws?

 

[fatprop]

I know we'll find out soon enough, but anyone got predictions as to which nations will benefit or be harmed by these new scrum laws?

The law of unintended consequences suggests that it won't be the perfect solution

 

[Bardon]

I know we'll find out soon enough, but anyone got predictions as to which nations will benefit or be harmed by these new scrum laws?

I certainly don't think it'll be a case of teams that are currently exploiting the hit for advantage will go down and others will come up. I think it';; be more related to how teams and nations plan for and adapt to change. As in the past certain teams and nations have been ahead of the curve because they look to the future and plan appropriately. While other nations and teams are still adjusting to the past changes and the current situation.

I'd put nations and teams into 3 categories related to how well they'll go under the new rules.

1. Little change:

These would be nations and teams who don't think their selections should change because of the changes. They'll struggle initially with the new laws. The need for change will be forced upon them as they struggle to get the same advantage from scrums as those in the other 2 categories.

I'd have Scotland and Italy in this category due to their recent history of being slow to adopt changes. I'd also have the Scottish and Welsh regions in this category.

2. Reactive change:

Nations and teams who know that change is coming and are prepared to change their selection & preparation pretty quickly as the affects of the change become apparent. They'll look at what those in category 3 are doing and learn from them.

I'd place the Welsh and English national teams in this category along with the Irish Provinces and many French teams.

3. Proactive change:

There are team out there that have been preparing for this change for a very long time. They'll have already worked out how to gain an advantage from the changes.

Not only that they've probably worked out how to gain an extra advantage when other team catch on to what they've been doing. While other teams are working on adjusting to how the new scrums are going they'll be working on what comes after that phase and looking ahead to other possible rule changes on the horizon. I'd place the All Blacks and the NZ Super Rugby teams in this category along with the English clubs.

Other nations:

Other nations and clubs are harder to categorise. My gut says that SA would be category 2 but Meyer's stubbornness may put them in category 1. I'd have Aus in category 1 under Deans but with Link in charge they may now be in category 2 working towards category 3 in the future.

In Ireland we've been pretty slow to adopt to changes and there's been a raging debate about scrummaging for many years. Under Deccie I'd place us in category 1 as we only reacted after a disaster when it was forced. I think under Schmidt we'll move to category 2 and if he's there long enough maybe category 3 like Leinster were.

The teams who achieve success in the long term are those who are either always in category 3 or are able to move up through the categories.

But hey I'm just a fan so what do I know.

 

[scaraby]

wow i spent all my playing days with my ear up agst props arses and the only advise i ever got was a pat on the head or last nights beers up my nose...didnt realise you guys were actually thinking......so all that grunting is actually code for something?...what next? hair salons designer clothes?...look out 10s here come the REAL playmakers......

 

[Dam0]

I am most disappointed that Crockett is injured. These law changes should suit him down to the ground. Under the current laws he is considered a bit of PK magnet because he struggles to get his bind on after the hit, and because of his height his head and shoulders are too low on the engage. Provided he gets his bind on and he survives the engage he is a very strong scrummager. With a more passive engage, and given time for the players to adjust their binds while the scrum is square and steady before the ball goes in, he might finally secure his place in the All Blacks.

As for which country will benefit most from the new laws, it is very hard to say. I have a suspicion that the hooking techniques of the hookers, and their partnership with the halfbacks will become vitally important; both to secure own ball and to contest the opponents put-in. From what I have read the ball stays in the tunnel longer and there will be real opportunities to win tightheads.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Not specifically on the new laws, but related, I hope our No 8 (Mowen esp) refrains from trying to pick the ball out of the scrum if our scrum is going backwards. No problem if it is moving forwards, but I am less than happy seeing the number 8 picking up the ball with the opposition No 9 all over him.

 

[Dan54]

Was reading that Kieren Read says one of things he had to get used to with scrum was that ball didn't seem to come out the same channel, maybe because it actually gets to hooker before coming back I suppose.

 

[Sully]

You used to tell the hooker which channel you wanted the ball to come out. Guess we're starting all over again.

 

[fatprop]

You used to tell the hooker which channel you wanted the ball to come out. Guess we're starting all over again.

And we should be only focused on channel one ball for the near future, get it in and out

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Lindommer]

And we should be only focussed.....one ball for the near future, get it in and out.

Said the actress to the bishop.....

 

[mark_s]

Having witnessed nearly every technique in the lower half of Subbies over five years, it is interesting to see how things have changed.

Good post Pfitzy. My most unusual subbies technique story was packing down against the 250kg prop who played in sandshoes and didnt even bend over when packing into the scrum. He just let you bury yourself in his gut while he admired the view, knowing that eventually you would have to come up for air.