Should Wallabies have pre-Lions training camp or Play S15 games

[emuarse]

The Fox Sports internet site reports the discontent from the Super 15 sides at the prospect of losing their Wallaby players more than two weeks out before the first test against the Lions

The Waratahs could lose up to 10 players for their game against the Western Force, and the Rebels a possible 4 players. The Reds would be without star players for a game against the Lions at Suncorp which if they had them playing them could expect a bumper crowd.

I personally agree with Cheika's remarks " "We don't think it's right," he said. "That's two weeks out from the (first Test) and if the players don't play in that game then it's three weeks with no playing.
"Match fitness is a very important thing."

Also rugby needs all the fans it can get; by locking the Wallabies away for three weeks is too extreme. Two weeks of training to already fit players should be more than adequate

What are your thoughts on this?


Read more: http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/wallabies/australian-rugby-union-facing-backlash-from-super-rugby-franchises-over-plans-for-wallabies-camp/story-e6frf55l-1226555370227#ixzz2IAgwBQDV

 

[fatprop]

Let them be in camp and come back for the game

Deans sent units back to club for game time from camps in the past, I see no reason for the same process not to continue

 

[daz]

It is an interesting problem. I agree that the simple solution is as fp says above; release them for the weekend fixtures during the camp time.

Where it will really be tested is if any of the Oz provinces are shooting for finals positions, particularly home finals, and suddenly a season defining game is being played without the top 3 or 4 players. There will be no such problem with any of the SA or NZ teams, so it will be a massive disadvantage.

I am going to assume the ARU (specifically RD) sat down with the S15 coaches and explained what he is trying to achieve so that there was a level of agreement and buy-in, rather than just demanding.

 

[TOCC]

In regards to having the players in Wallaby camp during the week and release them back to their super rugby clubs on the weekend: During the later parts of the 2012 Reds season Beau Robinson and AWH weren't even able to train during the week due to injury yet were playing on the weekend, so there are ways that it can be done, its obviously not ideal but its better then not having them at all.

 

[Jets]

This just screams of Robbie Deans starting to think his job is on the line, would have thought it would have been well before now, and is trying to do as much as he can at the last minute to get the job done against the Lions to get him to the RWC.
You would think having the guys in camp from Sunday-Wednesday night and letting them go back to their Super teams for the rest of the week would make sense. The issue will be made worse if they release some players and not others. If the Tah's lost to the Force and a few Tah's sat out there would be massive issues.

 

[BDA]

This is a tough one for me.

The Lions will be playing together as a team for 3 week before the first Wallabies test, potentially against full strength Super 15 teams. I think that Wallabies should be in camp for a few weeks prior to the first test, particularly because the Wallabies are notoriously slow starters in any test season (2011 Samoa, 2012 Scotland). From Robbie Deans’ point of view I think it would be better to hold off the best players until the first test. Plus (using the Reds game as an example) I could see a major upside to letting guys like Jono Lance, CFS, Morahan etc have a crack at the Lions. This provides the perfect opportunity for fringe players to get some much needed game team and some experience against top class opposition heading into the business end of the Super 15 comp whilst also allowing the perfect opportunity to rest star players with no risk of losing competition points.

At the same time, it also represents a good opportunity for our Wallabies to measure up against their opposite numbers prior to the tests, and maybe even strike a mental blow with a win over the Lions.

Personally I’d like to see a “case by case” approach. I’d like to see some players ruled out of participating in these games, while other could be eligible. For instances I.d like to see a guy like Palu ruled out. His involvement in the Lions tests is crucial and he should be wrapped in cotton wool. Likewise Pocock should not be available as he is a player that the Lions will struggle to cope with at first instance and will need to adapt to. I’d prefer to see him held back. Other players that should be held back are Benn Robinson, TPN (as he’ll likely be in need of rest by that time in the season and/or will likely injure himself against the Lions) and Horwill,

Then depending on whether certain players need a rest I’d prefer to see guys like Hanson, SFaingaa, Taps, Dennis, Hooper, Timani, Gill, Ryan etc play.

Not sure where I stand with Cooper and Genia. In respect of Genia, he’s a guy that needs game time this season. I think he should have enough game time by the time the Lion tests start but it might do him good to get another game under his belt. At the same time I think we’re fucked if he goes down injured. I’d probably be leaning towards resting him.

With Cooper I’d actually be leaning toward letting him play. It’s debatable whether he’s still the incumbent 10, and the game will provide a go opportunity for Deans to see how he goes against the NH players and also a good opportunity for Cooper to prove his worth. I say let him play.

 

[Braveheart81]

BDA I think this is more about resting players from their final Super Rugby games before the break for the Lions tour than allowing Wallabies to play for their franchise against the Lions.

The test players have already been pretty much ruled out from playing the tour matches against the Lions.

 

[BDA]

Ah yes i guess that's right in relation to the tahs players. But the Reds have a bye the previous week. The only game the Reds have is against the Lions and McKenzie wants the test players available.

 

[Braveheart81]

Yes. If they are considering not letting the Wallabies play in that round of Super Rugby you'd assume that the same would apply for the Reds in the game against the Lions.

It makes no sense to me. The option of starting the camp and then breaking it up on the Wednesday so the players can go back to their teams for the captain's run and then play on the Friday/Saturday makes a lot more sense.

 

[Jets]

Resting key players from the Reds would make more sense that resting guys from a Super fixture. Deans should have had hit shit sorted by now an not require players to be taken away from Super games.

 

[antimony]

Agree with BDA, case by case is the only way to handle this.

If a player is fully fit 3 weeks without a competative game is too long. Meanwhile the Lions will be building nicely towardsd the first test.

For the Reds V Lions game if some is integral to Robbie's plans and he wants to stop them getting a look at them, I can except that.

Please let common sense prevail.

 

[Braveheart81]

For the Reds V Lions game if some is integral to Robbie's plans and he wants to stop them getting a look at them, I can except that.

I don't really know how this argument could prevail.

Surely anyone that is integral to Robbie Deans' plans is already well known by the Lions players and coaches.

I agree with you completely that anyone who is fully fit needs to be playing rugby three weeks before the first Lions test.

 

[antimony]

Surely anyone that is integral to Robbie Deans' plans is already well known by the Lions players and coaches.

I think there is a fare difference between having video and a plan to actually putting them into practice during a game.

 

[en_force_er]

Bring them into camp on Monday. Do your gameplay planning, medical assessment, etc.

If a player is doing A-okay send them back to their province on Thursday night, if they are doing it tough and carrying an injury then rest them.

I think the Super Rugby coaches have a right to request their Wallaby players for every Super Rugby game but not for the Lions games. Though Robbie should allow players who are in the Wob squad but unlikely to be in the 23 to play those games.

 

[No4918]

I think the test players will benefit from games against the Lions before the real deal. Given the piss poor performances that usually come after so long in a Deans camp i would be much happier for the players to get a taste of the action before the tests. Can't see them doing much in 3 weeks that could not be achieved in 2.

 

[emuarse]

Bring them into camp on Monday. Do your gameplay planning, medical assessment, etc.

I think the test players will benefit from games against the Lions before the real deal. Given the piss poor performances that usually come after so long in a Deans camp i would be much happier for the players to get a taste of the action before the tests. Can't see them doing much in 3 weeks that could not be achieved in 2.

From En_force_er

If a player is doing A-okay send them back to their province on Thursday night, if they are doing it tough and carrying an injury then rest them.

I agree with both these posts - they make a lot of sense

 

[REDinCPT]

i think to rest test players for games v the B&IL is outside the spirit of the tour. as far as i can remember, the top players are rested for the mid-week games and then the best play on saturday. the provinces should be pissed if they are forced to rest fit players for super rugby games and i think it's really unfair for the reds to not be allowed to have a decent crack at the B&IL. also, resting fit players has a bad habit of biting you on the arse.

 

[en_force_er]

i think to rest test players for games v the B&IL is outside the spirit of the tour. as far as i can remember, the top players are rested for the mid-week games and then the best play on saturday. the provinces should be pissed if they are forced to rest fit players for super rugby games and i think it's really unfair for the reds to not be allowed to have a decent crack at the B&IL. also, resting fit players has a bad habit of biting you on the arse.

If there is a 10 day plus window between the province-Lions game and the Wallaby-Lions game then a player should play.

As a bit of a coach myself I think 10 days is the perfect break between games.

 

[It is what it is]

This is a tough one for me.

The Lions will be playing together as a team for 3 week before the first Wallabies test, potentially against full strength Super 15 teams. I think that Wallabies should be in camp for a few weeks prior to the first test, particularly because the Wallabies are notoriously slow starters in any test season (2011 Samoa, 2012 Scotland). From Robbie Deans’ point of view I think it would be better to hold off the best players until the first test. Plus (using the Reds game as an example) I could see a major upside to letting guys like Jono Lance, CFS, Morahan etc have a crack at the Lions. This provides the perfect opportunity for fringe players to get some much needed game team and some experience against top class opposition heading into the business end of the Super 15 comp whilst also allowing the perfect opportunity to rest star players with no risk of losing competition points.

At the same time, it also represents a good opportunity for our Wallabies to measure up against their opposite numbers prior to the tests, and maybe even strike a mental blow with a win over the Lions.

Personally I’d like to see a “case by case” approach. I’d like to see some players ruled out of participating in these games, while other could be eligible. For instances I.d like to see a guy like Palu ruled out. His involvement in the Lions tests is crucial and he should be wrapped in cotton wool. Likewise Pocock should not be available as he is a player that the Lions will struggle to cope with at first instance and will need to adapt to. I’d prefer to see him held back. Other players that should be held back are Benn Robinson, TPN (as he’ll likely be in need of rest by that time in the season and/or will likely injure himself against the Lions) and Horwill,

Then depending on whether certain players need a rest I’d prefer to see guys like Hanson, SFaingaa, Taps, Dennis, Hooper, Timani, Gill, Ryan etc play.

Not sure where I stand with Cooper and Genia. In respect of Genia, he’s a guy that needs game time this season. I think he should have enough game time by the time the Lion tests start but it might do him good to get another game under his belt. At the same time I think we’re fucked if he goes down injured. I’d probably be leaning towards resting him.

With Cooper I’d actually be leaning toward letting him play. It’s debatable whether he’s still the incumbent 10, and the game will provide a go opportunity for Deans to see how he goes against the NH players and also a good opportunity for Cooper to prove his worth. I say let him play.

Are you an eye doctor BDA?

 

[Forcefield]

Sounds like whinging from McKenzie and Cheika.

The Reds only want Horwill, Genia and Cooper to play for a chance at winning their game and to make a wad of cash from gate takings. Seems unreasonable that the Reds, who already are getting a weekend game that the Brumbies, Force, Rebels don't get, want more. They will play Horwill, Genia and Cooper for as many minutes as possible through the Super Rugby season- they could use the 2 game break to freshen up. Those three are the three most irreplaceable Wallabies players (depending on whether you are a Cooper fan). We can't afford to risk injury to any of them.

Cheika is having an even bigger whinge. He might lose 6 or 7 players (I reckon the rest will be released) to play against a fairly average and quite probably injury struck Force outfit that has just played a midweek game against the Lions. I thought Cheika was supposed to be a hard nut. Sounds a bit more like a pussy.