Shute Shield 2013

[WorkingClassRugger]

I actually spitball this kind of of idea with my mate all the time (but obviously not including a "combined states" team because with adults that's infeasible).

The question is, do we need to expose players to Super Rugby scouts or do we need to develop players? A short tournament with 3-5 games would do plenty to expose and test our up and coming talent for recruitment reasons but I don't think I'd do much for personal development that the academy system of yesteryear couldn't do.

I guess one has to ask, do we want a 3rd tier for entertainment, development, or recruitment? All good reasons and all would factor into any plan, but we still need to decide which we deem more important than others.

I look at it as more a development issue that comes with an entertainment aspect to it. If you consider my suggestion above, if you brought in teams from Mel, Perth and the ACT along with all the NSW based players in the Shield, you would have I believe a highly competitive competition with a high density of talent which you drive player development while spreading it over enough teams to ensure that it still remains quite open and free running.

 

[en_force_er]

I look at it as more a development issue that comes with an entertainment aspect to it. If you consider my suggestion above, if you brought in teams from Mel, Perth and the ACT along with all the NSW based players in the Shield, you would have I believe a highly competitive competition with a high density of talent which you drive player development while spreading it over enough teams to ensure that it still remains quite open and free running.

I personally think (and I could go into depth but I really should be working rigby now) a competition of:

Melbourne Rep Team
Perth Rep Team
ACT Rep Team
Top 4 Shute Shield Teams
Top 3 Hospital Cup Teams
NSW Barbarians (working name)- Rep team of best players from SS teams that didn't make it and Country NSW
Qld Barbarians (working name)- Rep team of best players from HC teams that didn't make it and Country Qld

Fiddle with the ins and outs all you want but this would equal at 12 team competition that divides cleanly into 3 pools of 4.

You play 2 pool matches in the June test window (with club competitions to go on a brief break, perhaps we could run 7s tournaments?)

You play 1 pool match plus finals starting 2 weeks after Super Rugby. Finals works that the pool winner and highest losers play a standard finals series over 2 weeks. Positions 5-8 and 9-12 play a lightning premiership style finals series over 1 day.

Obviously it's got it's flaws but if Victoria (for example) managed to get its rep team to play both NSW Country and ACT this year and WA home/away last year then I'm sure we can find a way. It might just mean less off season tours and less travel to preseason matches.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I personally think (and I could go into depth but I really should be working rigby now) a competition of:

Melbourne Rep Team
Perth Rep Team
ACT Rep Team
Top 4 Shute Shield Teams
Top 3 Hospital Cup Teams
NSW Barbarians (working name)- Rep team of best players from SS teams that didn't make it and Country NSW
Qld Barbarians (working name)- Rep team of best players from HC teams that didn't make it and Country Qld

Fiddle with the ins and outs all you want but this would equal at 12 team competition that divides cleanly into 3 pools of 4.

You play 2 pool matches in the June test window (with club competitions to go on a brief break, perhaps we could run 7s tournaments?)

You play 1 pool match plus finals starting 2 weeks after Super Rugby. Finals works that the pool winner and highest losers play a standard finals series over 2 weeks. Positions 5-8 and 9-12 play a lightning premiership style finals series over 1 day.

Obviously it's got it's flaws but if Victoria (for example) managed to get its rep team to play both NSW Country and ACT this year and WA home/away last year then I'm sure we can find a way. It might just mean less off season tours and less travel to preseason matches.

I think you've posted something similar to that before, not bad but I would actually scratch the two BaaBaas squads initially. Actually no, scrap that. Keep the BaaBaa squads. If it based on a qualification process via the SS and HC then we can assume there my not be any representatives from Western Sydney so I can see the Rams coming back for that. It could be played during the Rugby Championship. That way there is a competition allowing our best players outside the Wallabies active in case they are needed.

With Ten assuming the rights for the Wallabies, it may be worthwhile approaching them with some kind of coverage on a purely cost basis. Look for sponsorship to fill the gap. Could work.

 

[Andrew B Cox]

All valid Coxy but aren't we comparing Princes to Paupers.
I would not dream of taking you on when it comes to Netball but isn't still the highest team participant sport in the country? Doesn't it have more money than god bleeding parents dry since time in memorial.

AFL - again rich and no international play to support.

NRL - how much were the TV rights again?

The answer is abolish the Academies send them back to club football, filter those coaches, structure and $s back to the clubs. Then over time, and I'm thinking years, we may be able afford to intro a national comp if it is needed. Remember we won 2 world cups on the club structure NZ still had the ITM and SA the Curry Cup back then.

Short term and cost sensible option now is to play a short comp post club comps with either the Grand Finalists of the Shute Shield and Premier Rugby + a Combined States team or 2 rep sides from each Stute Shield and Premier Rugby + Combined States - 5 teams over in a month done and dusted.

We have to understand what capacity the Australian Sporting $ has and build with in our means.

The ARC had some great games but failed in better economic times.
What is going to be different?

Don't disagree at all with what you're saying.

I think there are always two ways of moving forward; one is to look at what we want to ideally achieve; the other is to look at what we already have and see how it can achieve those goals.

And certainly evolution beats revolution. Less blood.

The thing is that the best players need to be playing against the best players- Australia wide.

To take another example from Netball- the Mobil Superleague started into a pre-season national club comp, where the top 2 teams from each state league played off on 5-6 weekends. It evolved into a National league where the club teams could augment their teams with imports from sides that didn't make it. It then evolved again into the NNL with 8 new teams, and now is the ANZ championship.

Only the last step involved professional players.

I worry that if our State comps are not evolved with considered objectives in mind, they will lose relevance and continue to struggle for share of voice.

 

[en_force_er]

I think you've posted something similar to that before, not bad but I would actually scratch the two BaaBaas squads initially. Actually no, scrap that. Keep the BaaBaa squads. If it based on a qualification process via the SS and HC then we can assume there my not be any representatives from Western Sydney so I can see the Rams coming back for that. It could be played during the Rugby Championship. That way there is a competition allowing our best players outside the Wallabies active in case they are needed.

With Ten assuming the rights for the Wallabies, it may be worthwhile approaching them with some kind of coverage on a purely cost basis. Look for sponsorship to fill the gap. Could work.

Cheers, I know the BaaBaa's concept is far from ideal but it'd work.

If you think the gulf between Penrith and Syd Uni is bad now, imagine how bad it would be if Syd Uni players are exposed on a national stage and Penrith players have literally 0 chance of that happening.

If these BaaBaa teams were chosen and coached by Waratah/Reds staff members imagine how far that would go in bridging the gap. Unnoticed players from lowly clubs would get to meet and greet high level coaches, this would be a huge leg up for their careers.

 

[Intruder]

Having a look on the University website and came across a photo including former NRL winger Fetuli Talanoa. The students seem to have scalped yet another quality back

 

[SackRobbie]

Having a look on the University website and came across a photo including former NRL winger Fetuli Talanoa. The students seem to have scalped yet another quality back

Yeh he got a pay out from South Sydney and he has moved to Uni. (He's on no money of course... cough cough)

He is being groomed to play on the wing and from all reports could be anything. I am hearig that he has really impressed the coaches.

 

[SackRobbie]

Just heard from a reliable source that Israel Folau will be aligned with Sydney University. NSW and all will deny any influence but we all know that is bullshit. It is an unadulterated disgrace, a rort and another example of the shortsightedness of Rugby Administration. If he signed with Parramatta, Penrith, Wests, Warringah or Souths, it would have been big news and a boost to the game in the areas where it's needed most, even though he'll probably never play a game of club rugby. Instead he disappears into the great talent vortex at Camperdown where he'll go up on the wall as yet another NSW/Australian rep from the Students. No doubt the thousands of Sydney Uni juniors will get a boost.. oh that's right they have none. I know the 1800 odd Parramatta Juniors would have, along with the thousands more in the West that might have been attracted to Rugby by a big name. An opportunity has been squandered and those responsible won't give a toss.

Take it as gospel that Izzy has signed with Uni. I met with some of the Uni heavies on Thursday night and they were happy to tout his signing.

 

[SackRobbie]

I really would love to agree with you TH, but if we examine other sports, very few have evolved without a national bridge between an international provincial comp and a city-based district comp.

Netball, for example, has instigated a national league to sit under its trans tasman championship. They believe that it is too much of a leap to ANZ championship from State League.

AFL is talking about bringing back reserves, as the VFL has proven too much of a leap. So too is NRL. The Toyota Cup has been established to bridge the gap between NSW/QLD Cup and the NRL.

In short, the next level of players, who are just short of Super level need to be competing against each other in the one consolidated competition.

That could mean the Shute Shield is expanded to include interstate teams and rationalised, or even current sides may be encouraged to form allegiences with Super sides as feeder teams.

Neither these options are palatable for current Shute Shield teams.

And yes, I have no idea where the money is going to come from to build a national comp.

However, I think we need to understand that the Shute Shield in its current form, with its current teams is not the best possible competition in terms of serving the Super franchises.

There is no evidence to suggest that by keeping the pool of emerging talent in 3 or more separate competitions (as happens now) is the best way of developing that talent. Moreover, concentrating that talent within each comp into half the teams is even worse.

Don't get me wrong. I love the Shute Shield. I miss not being involved, as it has given me a great deal of joy for decades. Nor am I having a shot at any club- the haves- or the have- nots.

I just think we need to work out what it is supposed to do. If it is to feed the Super franchises with talent, all the talent should play in the one comp.

Look forward to some healthy, well reasoned discussion.

I dont actually think thats right Coxy. The Toyota Cup is the youth comp and its inability to prepare players for 1st grade is why teams have reintroduced their reserve grade in the NSW Cup. eg Illawarra Cutters for the St George Illawarra Dragons

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Take it as gospel that Izzy has signed with Uni. I met with some of the Uni heavies on Thursday night and they were happy to tout his signing.

Not entirely unexpected, but a shame anyway.

I am sure that they have their reasons, and they will also be couched in beautiful prose.

Whatever way it is sugar coated, it represents an opportunity lost.

 

[MACCA]

I dont actually think thats right Coxy. The Toyota Cup is the youth comp and its inability to prepare players for 1st grade is why teams have reintroduced their reserve grade in the NSW Cup. eg Illawarra Cutters for the St George Illawarra Dragons

Check out these fringe Waratahs!

Mike Ala'alatoa (NSW Academy/West Harbour), Elijah Niko (NSW Academy/Easts), David Horwitz (Scots College/NSW Academy), Jack Littejohn (former Roosters player), Richard Aho (Penrith); front row: Will Skelton (Sydney University), Peter Samu (Randwick), Kotoni Ale (NSW Academy/Manly), AJ Gilbert (Norths), Wayne Borzak (Warringah).​

There are some inspired selections however some odd ones as well. How did J Littlejohn crack it? He is a good kid however has been playing the 2nd tier mungo comp. Is the Shute Shield that bad that there are no similar candidates? What of the others?​

 

[hawktrain]

Doesn't Jack Littlejohn have massive wraps on him?

AJ Gilbert deserves a spot in the proper Tahs squad IMO, hell of a player and I reckon he'd be up to the next level for sure.

 

[qwerty51]

I really wonder how Will Skelton is given a shot before Adam Coleman and Tom Alexander

 

[AussieDominance]

I thought Coleman would be someone that the Tahs would certainly be looking to develop with his athletic characteristics + build/height.

 

[I like to watch]

Doesn't Jack Littlejohn have massive wraps on him?

There are 16 x 25 players preferred to him in the NRL.
So the wraps aren't that huge.

 

[Tah and feathered]

Can

I really wonder how Will Skelton is given a shot before Adam Coleman and Tom Alexander[/quotCan't go on how Will Skelton played last season so it's based on his 1st colts form in 2011 where he did nothing until Uni got 15 metres from the opposition try line
Coleman and Alexander both had good seasons in 1st grade last year
Maybe they don't play for the right club?

 

[Torn Hammy]

There are 16 x 25 players preferred to him in the NRL.
So the wraps aren't that huge.

I've always thought that cherry picking the 20 year olds who don't make it into top grade league would be a smart way to go.

 

[I like to watch]

Cherry pick also rans of another code?
There would be more than 50 guys in the SS that would have been good enough to play NYC but not NRL, if that was their career path of choice.
Why should he be given an opportunity in front of these guys?
I'm not saying he should never be given an opportunity, just that he should get in line and prove his worth like everyone else.
Bear in mind, he finished NYC in 2011 so he is not giving anything up to play Rugby.If you don't count getting snotted in a local A grade for a couple of hungee a win.

 

[Blackers13]

I thought Coleman would be someone that the Tahs would certainly be looking to develop with his athletic characteristics + build/height.

Coleman is training with the Western Force squad

 

[MACCA]

I've always thought that cherry picking the 20 year olds who don't make it into top grade league would be a smart way to go.

I agree however also think that they should not jump the cue over people that are committed to rugby. Let them get through the Shute Shield before being given the privilege of a Waratahs training spot. I know Littlejohn is a handy player however I know of plenty of rugby boys that would line up favourably against him.